It’s difficult to take on something this stark but I feel compelled to try.
Over the last few days, my husband and I watched two documentaries on Netflix. We saw, “Oh Saigon“, first. It’s the well told, gut-wrenching story of a refugee family who came to in the United States in 1975. It’s all about staggering loss on multiple levels from various very personal points of view.
We watched, “The Overnighters” next. It’s about a variety of people who have hit the skids for a variety of reasons. Unemployed, the men head to North Dakota, hoping to get jobs in the oil fields. It’s a gritty and gripping documentary that conjures up the Depression era.
The people featured in these programs lost most everything they had at some point. Through their own fault in some cases. In other cases they were taken out by forces greater than them. Like a tsunami.
These shows were both complex and interesting. Like looking at an inkblot, different people would see different things.
Not surprisingly, the focal point for me was on relationships the people had…or lacked.
The men in North Dakota, who had a family, “back home”, be it parents or a wife or a wife and children, seemed to have a greater sense of purpose. This seemed to increase their chances of success.
They were less likely to give up, basically. If it’s just you, then it’s just you. But when others are depending on you, and rooting for you, waiting for you, loving and caring about you, this gives your life more meaning.
It’s no secret, I think our country (and yours too, most likely) is collapsing. We have these pockets of poverty. The pockets are not shrinking, they’re expanding.
I asked my husband how people could think they’re going to get through something like this, alone. Or why they’d want to even try.
I don’t really think they do. I think people are scared, but they have no earthly idea how to solve their relationships problems.
This is a strong area of interest for me. People tend to “compromise” as they get older, when it comes to partnering. But it’s not really “compromise” as in “settling”.
It’s not that people decide to accept less. They realize that they themselves are less then they may have believed at one time. They’re human!
Realizing that you, yourself are a pain to deal is one of the more important keys to unlocking the door that prevents you from partnering or playing well with others. Yes, the other person is flawed, but have you checked the mirror, lately?
I do a lot of consulting. I know that many people have no idea where to start when it comes to establishing a supportive partnership. This is why I took the time to create these classes. I wanted to help.
I worked on my Master Class – Finding Love With Astrology for a year! I saw the need for this, because I would identify love problems for clients, but have no time left to outline solutions for them. Awful, right? So I fixed it.
I followed that up with a workshop, specifically geared to people looking for love, later in life. Finding Your True Love And Soulmate. Venus Saturn! This class is for people with serious impediment to finding love, shown in their chart. Nobody wants to take this stuff on. It’s too hard! But I knew I could do it so I did.
You may still think you can handle life alone and you may be right. This post is for the people who know they’d be better off partnered. But they need some clarity and some help getting on track.
I’m sorry, but these hard times are here and bound to get worse. If you lose your job, it sure would be nice to have a partner there to help sustain you. I don’t know how this can be denied.
Thank you for doing these. I bought one of these workshop transcripts; am saving up for the other one. The first one was very helpful, so I’m sure the second one will be as well.
I love this, thank thank thank you! This post goes straight to my core. I’ve been dealing with this very question and have come to the same conclusion… why on earth would I want to do this alone? I have a run gene. When things get rough, I want to RUN more than I want to resolve. I don’t know how to resolve all things though I try… and, thank God I am changing.
I posted on the boards about a relationship problem I was having. I have a Scorpio Moon conj Saturn in the 4th house… so that wasn’t easy, to be so open… but responses were given with such thought and care it almost made me weep. Times are tough and things may be going terribly wrong… but relationship is here and ready to thrive. There is a philosopher named Krishnamurti… His personal story is very interesting. He says, “Life is relationship.”
Brazil is passing through a very hard time right now and this weekend, protests are abound. Unfortunately, gas prices have soared. Electricity bills, in some cases, have raised more than 80% and major cities have started rationing water because the rainy season this year was dry. Most of Brazil’s electricity is hydro power… so you can imagine. When I moved here the exchange rate was around 1.6 and now it has soared to 3,10. I sense a lot of panic and people are stressed. I have no idea what this weekend will bring. Protests for sure, probably violent because of only a few people. A lot of people want an impeachment.
“””””, seemed to have a greater sense of purpose. This seemed to increase their chances of success.””””””
“”””””This gives your life more meaning”””””
not quite sure I agree with that .
I see a lot of people using kids and the whole “”family thing” to guilt and manipulate situations,
Anyway love your site 🙂
This was strictly my impression of what I watched, which would be biased
Also,this was not the focus of the program, which is worth watching *to the surprising end.
Also,I am happy to own my own fear around this. I am very worried for people who ignore what I believe is the writing on the wall.
Interesting. Although it’s true that some “have-to’s” in life aren’t necessary to be happy or have a meaningful life (e.g. Having kids, getting married, being close with family), we are still essentially social animals. As a whole we are mentally stronger, happier, have better immune systems (haha) when we make good connections with others, especially if they are people we can truly rely on. Many institutions (marriage, parenting, career outlooks, education) have been changing, so they question is how to recreate a sense of community and trust, when many of our relationships seem transient, with people either making false promises or no promises at all. Is it good to make promises? How do we see the benefit of commitment?
Wow, this shit goes deep: “Yes, the other person is flawed, but have you checked the mirror, lately?” so, that’s the reality is to know that if we want to be close with others, we have to accept that we aren’t perfect. We are also human and can’t do everything ourselves, so we can see and accept others as imperfect as well.
Yes, the other person is flawed, but have you checked the mirror, lately?
So a story:
An important man supervising the installation of a telephone pole says it’s straight, and is about to send the workers home. But a kid and a granny say it’s crooked from their points of view, and save the day! We need more points of view to see the world a bit more accurately. 🙂
” “Yes, the other person is flawed, but have you checked the mirror, lately?” so, that’s the reality is to know that if we want to be close with others, we have to accept that we aren’t perfect.”
See, people look at themselves and think they are great / too good for X…not realizing that anything could happen. They could have an accident, get ill, lose the job they think is bulletproof, etc. etc. I see this every day, in practice. Every day!
But eventually a person realizes they are human. And they think of the kind people they’ve kicked to curb. I think this happens with men, but I know it happens with women. There are legions of women who would do anything to get back a man they dumped…having come to realize his quality.
So in high times, all this stuff is okay, I guess. But when people are struggling, the criteria changes. You want a loyal friend / a man or woman who loves you and will stay with you and support you through a hard time.
Very different from being focused on being hot and finding someone who is hot.
*nods* wow *takes in*
It’s weird, because sometimes Venus-Saturn maybe goes the other way. You think you aren’t good enough. You think you aren’t strong enough to make a commitment to get better, and be in a real relationship, until you build it for yourself. Appreciate one’s own qualities to appreciate good qualities in others.
Is it good to make promises?
You do something you say your going to do ,,is that hard?:)
How do we see the benefit of commitment? ?
Wow, this shit goes deep
We need more points of view to see the world a bit more accurately. 🙂
Which one would you recommend for those who are partnered but who are struggling to build a stronger relationship when forces of family and demands for work (travel, obligations of schedules etc.) make it so much more difficult to be in a healthy supportive relationship.
It almost is a matter, for me right now, of I’m married but I never see him and all conversation is devoted to solving this or that functional thing.
Any workshops for us who want a better foundation or how to have that long-term success?
I think a conversation would serve you best. A philosophy. Realizing that relationships are something you invest in that deepen over time.
Also, having a lot of time together does not correlate with happiness.
You get the idea. It sounds like your problems are intellectual, and tied to your perception of things.
It’s like when a couple has their first baby. They often want to kill each other…but it’s something you go through together and the result is worthwhile!
I just had this conversation of topic with a gf. She believes that the men in her life only brought her down. She feels that partnering is not her thing going forward. So yes we are jaded at this age, I suppose. None the less, it’s sometimes easier to find your strength in your own person, and then finding a person you can share that strength with. I’m a Libra, on my own for 10 years now. I can say, I have not been in sustainable relationships. Yes, I can find that in the chart. I always find great passionate love, and then it turns ugly. Now being on my own for 10 years, I can see that many of the “loves” in my life were not really the best choices. I can see the red flags now when I am dating. I still feel I can have that incredible love, even though I am over 50. Venus/Neptune may add a bit of magic to everything, but I can see more clearly than in my earlier days… I know what I do not want! I will not settle, to say I have a love. All too often people do. If it isn’t feeling real, I’m not interested.
I’ve calmed way down on my expectations of men, at this point. I have been in two love relationships in the past ten years, and saw the red flags, and turned out being correct on both.
Still, I have my children that I work for and give my sweat and tears for. I cannot imagine a life without them. So I am in agreement with Elsa. If you have nothing that you love or loves you, at the end of the day…. why bother?
This is an important topic for our current time.The areas of poverty do seem to be increasing and the country is divided. Keep this discussion going!! And thank you, Elsa, for recommending the documentaries.I live in an area where many people have left for North Dakota and it’s kind of “strange”.
Thank you, Sherry. I admire the men. I really do.
I would watch the program, but be aware, it hits on numerous topics not mentioned here.
There are success stories of course. There is a young man who is able to call his father and basically say he’d done it. He’d come to this town, gotten a job, performed well and been promoted.
That’s a hell of an accomplishment when you start out homeless. I know, because I started out homeless myself. I didn’t have a dime.
I also didn’t have a family so I guess this helps to form my opinion. I’ve lived without love and with it. There is no question which is better!! 🙂
After, Tru one’s comment and my response, I decided to ask my husband what he thought of these programs.
One thing they have in common is people are separated from their families. In “Oh, Saigon” they are looking back at history and how it’s affected (devastated) them. In the second program, one thing they leave out (that non-Americans may not know), is North Dakota is COLD. It’s a frozen place in the winter.
The program was filmed in a milder season but my point is, if someone does not take you in, you’re going to die in that cold.
The Vietnamese family were going to die if they did not get on the plane. These people are or have been, very near an edge. And over the edge, is death.
In regards to “The Overnighters” my husband is a church person and an organizer. He agrees, the town has to take these people in but he saw the pastor failing (during the program) when his fatigue impacts his judgement. He also thinks the town is short-sighted. It’s a boom town, created by these circumstances. He thought they could and should be taking advantage of it. Get some tents. Put them up on “Frank” or “Tom’s” land. You can take them down. Pay them something…pay the town something. When these people get jobs they can pay some money back…
I asked him about the relationship angle – he saw it too, but thinks it’s case in any circumstance. People are strengthened by their relationships. Scorpio, right. You need the energy of others.
Anyway, Oh Saigon was a gut-wrenching show as well, but very interesting to him (and me), because we grew up with the Vietnam war. And we understand the brainwashing / communism, and the results of it. It’s been 40 years since (part of) this family escaped and the pain is still fresh. Some people are more resilient than others. The wife said she talked on the phone with friends, but her husband just came home and watched tv. His home is gone, see?
So that’s relatable too. My home is also gone – America, as I understand her. It’s a challenge to adapt.
But the wife was not leaving her (fairly morose) husband, see? Where would they be if they did not have the family?
And this takes me back to my point.
The people in North Dakota who were not “alone in the world” for whatever reason, appeared to have an advantage over the others.
I think the desperateness of the situation is what brings this out…which is what I am trying to say with this post.
I did talk to my husband about what I wrote. He said his father would say, “love don’t pay the bills. Love doesn’t put food in the cupboards.”
I think many people have lost sight of this and it you can put it back in your sight, you may spare yourself a lot a pain.
So that’s what drove me to write this. I suspect it’s not obvious. This is a hard thing to write, because I have a pretty good clue it won’t be enjoyed or appreciated. But I did feel compelled, so here it is. 🙂
Last, these programs are a lot more interesting than the bulk of what’s out there. I guess they may be depressing for some. But there was a time when people realized how helpful it was to understand things like this is.
I agree that we all need that support system a relationship (couple) can bring. But I also receive a support system through my family, in particular my sister and my best friend, for which we have a pact if anything should happen.
“””””What gives your life more meaning”””””
There will be a lot of different answers, if any 🙂
I’ve never thought having children for the sake of having someone to live for or to take care of you in old age could be justified, nor partnering with someone for that reason either, only for genuine love. And even in genuine love, one must deal with the fact that one half of any partnership is likely to eventually be left to survive alone when the other dies. But to work at creating a network of strong, mutually supportive, genuine friendships, a community — yes, vital for all lives. Very interestingly, there were four books on this theme (solitude, loss, survival) discussed on today’s NPR Fresh Air — check it out!
My husbands employer is linked in several ways to North Dakota. And a few years ago they wanted to transfer us there. I threw 7 fits. No thank you to that kind of frozen weather. We have bad weather 6 months of the year here.
I did look for a place to live just in case. There were 3 homes for sale. I said we cant move there. They don’t have any homes to buy. (this was years ago)
As he traveled back and forth for business he got to know many of the people that have lived there for years. They absolutely hate that this many people are moving into their state. They are livid!
The reason they are livid is the amount of disrespect, and crime. The crime used to be almost nothing, now its off the charts. They feel like tons of felons are descending upon them and that their nature is being destroyed too. They feel like these people made crap decisions all their life and now they are paying for these folks previous bad decisions.
I didn’t want to move there because I didn’t want to be that far from my kids, and I am over weather like that. It was interesting to hear all the stories my husband heard when he traveled back and forth.
:The reason they are livid is the amount of disrespect, and crime. The crime used to be almost nothing, now its off the charts. They feel like tons of felons are descending upon them and that their nature is being destroyed too. They feel like these people made crap decisions all their life and now they are paying for these folks previous bad decisions.”
The film covers this angle extensively. My husband also goes up there all the time, to make deliveries. Our neighbor (Rylee’s dad) works in ND and has his family here. This has gone on for the last several years.
I asked the mother why they did not move there. She laughed heartily.
As someone from another culture, I have to mention something here. While things certainly are rough for everybody, the paradigm change is probably generally speaking bigger for Americans than people from many other countries, even in Western World.
It’s the whole idea of “making it on your own” seems to be much more important in American Culture than any other culture I know. Take, for instance, the way “selfmade man” (or person, but it really was “selfmade man” up until the 1970’s) was and still is celebrated in American Culture. Even in Europe, it’s been different. In Southern Europe, family unit has never disintegrated. In Italy, the richest man in the country, died a couple of years ago. Even if many ideas that lifted a smallish familybusiness to multibillion multinational brand were his, they never failed to mention it was a family business. In Northern Europe, society has taken the place of the family. Some may view this as a socialist idea, but it goes deeper (Karl Marx was Prussian, and this was the first country to have conscription, compulsorary schooling and pension for public servants, for instance, in the 18th century). Those who have are expected to give back to society – and not just a charity THEY chose, but to society. In Asia and Africa, the idea of family or tribe sharing resources is even more marked.
Very well put, Elsa but still…some people are born with Saturn-Venus contacts, Saturn, Pluto and Uranus in their 7th house, NN in 1st house. We all know it’s easier being partnered…so what?
Some people need to work at it I know, but in order to work you need a job first. In this case a relationship. And if you do the work on your own for 50 years are you lucky enough to find someone at 50?
I agree with everything you said but sometimes we die before we get to finish the work. Some people have to take their chances on their own and provide their own motivation and fire up the engine, otherwise we’ll kill ourselves longing for something/ someone that might not be in our cards.
Honestly, I don’t feel like romantic partnering is even an option for me in this life. That assumes I have choice and selection in men, or that I am even suitable for partnering in the first place. Which I’m not!
The only person I can count on that will always support me (uh, more or less….she’s better at some things than others) is my mother. Everyone else has bailed or can only help out once in a great while if their families don’t need them. I don’t like that she’s my life partner and it’s not what I would have consciously chosen, but both of us drive everyone else crazy (I try to mitigate my inner clingy, she doesn’t) and it’s not like anyone else wants to join the family. And I can’t blame them, I wouldn’t want us either. When I used to date I was always in a giant fight between my parents and my boyfriend and everyone demanding they be put first. It’s exhausting, plus part of me can’t help but think, “Why should I put someone I’ve been boinking for four months first and claim he’s my ‘partner?’ He can leave any damn time he wants. And will. There’s no reason he has to stay here and put up with me. Anyone else on the planet is easier for him to deal with.”
I just keep circling back to the same thing: I’m the only one I can reliably count on, and if I need help in life from anyone else but mom, FORGET IT. I don’t particularly like this, but trying to do things differently just leaves me in the same place, so I might as well go with it.
Jennifer, I think you know me well enough to know how I mean this…it’s just something that occurred to me, reading this.
I watched some episodes of this Big Love Big Women show for awhile. I had to quit, when the women were filmed spraying perfume, up their skirts, between their legs, calling it “coochie fresh”. But that degradation aside, there is a gal on there who is from Texas. Super-friendly – MAJOR sales ability…very cute, very horny and very failing when it comes to men.
She lives with her mother (and her daughter). Her mother is never critical of her,,,they really get along.
Her mother constantly tells her that she’s fine and everything will be glorious some day, but it’s not believable. This girl will always be with her mother, if she doesn’t get away from her mother.
Her mother is not mean or anything. She just supports her daughter through her repetitive failure…it’s pretty clear, she will be fine with her daughter and granddaughter living with her forever…and any other kids the girl decides to have.
I’m not judging them. It’s just this gal would probably say the same thing – the only person I can count on is my mom.
Most people are so scared of being alone, because then you would have to face yourself, that’s a mirror. So they do anything to be with anybody ” desperation”
But other people have been alone and faced themselves, and for doing that have come into a good “partnership situation” on behalf of our good ol buddy saturn
Everyone is different,,but try to be same for some dysfunctional reason, obviously we are all part of the human species that’s just a given.
It’s the same in Canada but instead of North dakota its Alberta 🙂
On behalf of our good ol buddy saturn and pluto
Very plutonic , scorpionic subject
I am curious/skeptical if these workshops could actually help me. I have the NN in the 7th in Taurus…and I’m sun/moon Libra. You’d think relationships would be a given. But they’re not. I have Venus/Uranus in 1st opposite Chiron in the 7th.
Relationships have been nothing but sudden separations, abandonment and pain. And moon square Neptune…total delusions.
NN is a karmic point of destiny but when does “destiny” come about? Tomorrow? When I’m 80? I’m already 30 and have scarcely had a “real” relationship. I oscillate between cunning self-reliance and a deep need to partner with someone. I put in a LOT of psychological/astrological work towards my “issues” and seem to be finding more things that stop me. But I keep working, all the same.
I still have a lot of hope but this has been a very bad karmic run so far. What can anyone tell me that I don’t already know?
You’ve identified the problem(s) but don’t have solutions:
“Relationships have been nothing but sudden separations, abandonment and pain. And moon square Neptune…total delusions.”
The video class would help you.
Yeah, I kind of second that. I keep looking everywhere and I just don’t find answers, and I’ve taken the classes. I guess I just don’t get it or am too stupid to get it or don’t get how that plays out in real life or something.
Your last statement is true of course, but there is a downside in terms of potential loss of power in the relationship and other less nice things. At any stage in life you do have to decide whether you are better alone or settled. Marriage ain’t easy and neither is being alone, I don’t think it’s either / or, but swings and roundabouts…
I would also add that I have worked with a lot of older people, and the ones that have been happiest, young acting and most independent are women who have been married, lost their husband but haven’t had children.
Last thought is that surveys have said the happiest groups of people are married men and single women! Which bears out your perception of the men in the film.
Married men are being taken care of. Married women are not always uh, taken care of. Single women might just be relieved to not be caregiving!
This topic is incredibly deep. It hurts to say this but its true, I guess you would have to really hit bottom and know what its like to be utterly alone and without support to come to appreciate the saturnian relationship. Sadly, as was mentioned, all too often people realize this too late and find themselves desperately lonely and lost in the world. It’s brutal to accept this for me. I want to fly away, I want to bathe in all that is NEPTUNE…neptune in sag for me… I’m always wondering why cant i be free. Sigh… But I have so much to be thankful for in the here and now, in my 7 year marriage. Do i have everything i want, no, but i know for a fact my husband would NEVER leave my side.
So sorry, i always think about these posts and then feel the urge to write more. So i write multiple comments on my comments, how annoying – tehe. I have a libra 3rd house and Elsas mars and mercury conjunction are in it opposite my mars, so maybe thats why?
I wanted to say, I was about to jump of the ledge and pursue this man I was head over heals for, I was so close to quite possibly ruining my life and living with deep, deep regret for the rest of my life. I couldn’t see that the rules apply to me as much as anyone and life is and will never be a fairytale. I couldn’t see the writing-on-the-wall that this other man could not possibly love me. His words said it, but his actions didn’t. If his actions would have matched his words, I would have left a long time ago. But thank God I have Saturn/Venus and I *waited* for something real. Never showed up… And i wasn’t about to take a leap of faith. I guess with Saturn/Venus if you dont have action, you dont have a relationship. Anyway, that’s it. glad I didn’t leave.
It’s kinda sad to me that most of the time when I’m with a guy I end up thinking, “rent would be half, we’d share the utilities, it’d be soooo much easier!” And then reality hits & the guy is an ass & I refuse to settle or compromise. (Meaning I’ll likely be single til I die.) *shrug* Just gotta figure out how to make more money, really. I’ve simultaneously given up & cling to hope. I know what my problem is, though. Having the patience to fix it is my problem.