Men Don’t Want To Partner Because Women Are Toxic?

I work with a lot of women who would like to partner. Men are far less interested in partnering than they were ten or twenty or thirty years ago. There comes a point where women have to ask themselves why this is.

I’m not talking about women who DON’T want to partner (with a man). You’re not the group having the trouble. If you are having trouble, what do you think of the idea that men no longer want to partner because women have become so toxic?

I’m not talking about sex. I’m talking about a traditional relationship where the partners share a household and finances and they work together to build at life, now and into the future.

I know a lot of women blame the men. Our culture encourages this. Media works hard to make men look like bumbling idiots. This doesn’t mean it’s true!

I also hear that men are babies…and that men have the Peter Pan complex, basically. But it seems women suffer from something similar. What are the chances all the women are great and all the men, horrible?

I think there are a lot of men staying “consciously uncoupled”.

What do you think? What’s the astrology?

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Men Don’t Want To Partner Because Women Are Toxic? — 133 Comments

  1. I don’t think women are toxic. I think women are more empowered than ever before and the old paradigms are gone. Women no longer need men to support them financially. Many men however, still want a woman who will clean their house, cook their meals, do their shopping, raise their children and do all the “traditional” “women’s work”, while still holding down a full time job. I’m not saying all men, just that many still want the “traditional” partnership which just doesn’t work anymore. And while it’s true that the media make men out to be babies and not so cool, it’s also true that this does apply to a lot of men. I think astrologically, as we transition into the Aquarian age, the age of patriarchy is coming to an end and it has not been nor will it be a smooth transition. In my opinion, women are finding this transition much easier than many men.

    • Agree with all but the very last sentence. I feel like some of the social freedom weve been waiting for is here. And Im happy so many systems and tools of oppression are slowly being unpacked and brought to light. But we do suffer romantically for various reasons. My city is notoriously tough for this.

      • I agree with both these comments. What I see is that men and women still fall in love, and that women are not toxic, yet neither are men.

    • What is astrologically about the Aquarian age???

      Only men in the grandparent generation are still interested in a ‘traditional’ partnership.

      • The age of Aquarius is about equality in all ways. The Piscean or religious age, was very patriarchal, with men ruling and women bending to their rule. Part of the traditional religious marriage ceremony asked women to “honor and obey” their husbands. The Bible insisted that women obey the head of the household, which was always a male. I do believe that many men still want an obedient wife, per se and most women are so not having that anymore. This may be why men think women are toxic. The question does not give any definition or indication of what “toxic” means in this context. I personally don’t think women are any more or less toxic than men.

        • Here’s what took me decades to figure out. It only takes about 15 minutes to a half hour of your time to make a man happy, which has nothing to do with being obedient or servile. (I took a very traditionally minded man to task once when he told me I needed to be “more obedient”. I said, I’m not a dog, thanks.) It’s just doing small things that you know will make him happy. Don’t worry about it not being reciprocated, because he’ll do the same for you if he loves you.

        • My question wasn’t asked very clearly, sorry. What I meant:
          From when until when is an Aquarian age? From what astrological factors could I see that?

  2. I have a friend in this boat. She says one thing (i want a relationship!) yet her actions reveal the exact OPPOSITE (puts out an oversexualized image on dating apps, goes out on dates that are clearly meant to be 1 nighters, extreme fault finding with all her dates). I don’t think anything will change until she reconciles this.

    She always finds the men who aren’t interested in partnering…probably because deep down, neither does she!

    And, she’s a gemini 🙂

  3. I wonder if this is also prevalent among groups of men and women who come from a traditional culture. For example, I’ve observed and seen people of Middle Eastern and Indian heritage still marrying at the *very* latest by their early 30’s and seeking a partner. There is a subset of modern career-driven men and women who are not interested in marriage or who have been jaded by the benefit of this type of commitment. I do see men and women marrying at a later age but many in this tradition are still seeking for life partners. I actually see more intercultural marriages slowly which is heartening.
    The more wealthy and independent the person, the more I notice that marriage becomes an option rather than being influenced by social obligation. The biggest difference is that young people are doing more casual relationships and able to get away with it. The parents are unable to catch up due to the advent of social media and technology.

    Because of this, I hear common complaints in traditional cultures that we don’t know if the man is truly honest about the number of partners he has had – as women are still expected to be pretty pure. Women are definitely gaining empowerment and standing up for their rights within these cultures and it’s a movement that is greatly needed. I don’t think men are completely caught up to it – women don’t have to woo solely on their beauty, honor, culinary traits and piety as before. 😉

    Not sure of the astrology but I’m curious to read others thoughts on it!

    • Ive only seen men run headlong from traditional cultures. One dude i knew didnt like the jyotish or astrology cause it made him think of arranged marriage. He hopped a continent to get away from that shit. A lot of the modern Indian people i meet seem to be.. moving away from some of that. Freedom is often tempting

      • Jyotish promises me a young and beautiful and rich wife and richness because of the partner. Perhaps I should move to India?

          • I’d think the promise would hold up rather nowhere. I’ve got the impression that promising a lot is typically Indian. So jyotish promises a lot of good things or such terrible things that they won’t be survived, so that only wealthy and lucky people remain. In my opinion already young and rich don’t really fit together. Perhaps offspring of a rich family, but then it would be a reason to run away from me because I can’t offer any luxury. It can’t be all true. You see?
            .
            Although my western chart doesn’t contradict. Ruler of Two in Seven for a rather wealthy partner, who manages the finances, ruler of Seven in Nine for a foreign partner. The latter probably an explanation why I never meet possible candidates.

    • My view of it is that there is hardly anything limited to traditional cultures. I also don’t have a relationship because I’m lacking wealth and independance. If I had them, then I would also have more options. No astrology of it, just common sense.

    • I think some women confuse feminism and empowerment with mistreating and verbally abusing men. Mutual respect is everything.

      • I also think a lot of men confuse feminism and empowerment with mistreating and abusing men. This is why they “hate feminists”. People really don’t get what it’s about. It’s gotten so bad that a lot of women are proud to NOT be feminists. Bitches please, you don’t want to consider yourselves as equally valuable human beings as men? Pfft. Doing the rest of us a disfavour.

        • Amen! I tell people all the time that feminism isn’t the same as misandry nor should it be a push for superiority. We have to remember that women until just the last few decades, spent many, many millennia in toxic subjugation to the opposite sex so there is a very steep learning curve that is taking place right now. It will take time to learn how to share power gracefully and without resentment. Bring on the age of Aquarius!

          • As if there even was an opportunity for women to be superior 😀 It’s mindboggling how some men so blatantly refuse to acknowledge inequality and full on hate on women for “emasculating” men. Come on. As if there’s even a possibility for that to happen for decades. Let us even have respect in the first place. Not Donald Trump respect, but actual respect without inborn attitudes.

  4. This post brings to mind the great piece you wrote a short time ago about The Soldier and you and the 80 – 20 percent rule.
    Are most women toxic? Yeah they are. It’s a very hard thing to think for a myriad of reasons let alone actually say out loud. And most of us don’t want to admit it, but deep down…yeah it’s true. Doesn’t mean they can’t change and transform into the 20% part. But maybe, who knows, just maybe 20% is enough.
    Blessings,
    Aries Rising

  5. It’s kind of part of the culture to blame white, straight, men, these days. Maybe men are tired of being demonized? Blamed for things that aren’t their fault?

    Are women toxic? I think they have toxic parts, here and there, but then again, who doesn’t?

    Always blame another race (especially the supposed dominant one), another gender, another religion. People don’t want to take responsibility anymore?

    • humans tend to feel more secure when they’ve some other group to demonized & blame.
      Someday, someday….let’s hope that’s a thing of the past. Okay. Yeah, call me Pollyanna 😉

    • Um. Historically there is a lot of blood on these men’s hands. It isnt as much blame as uncovering the manipulation of past and current history. They may read it as blame. It is more about what they dont have to deal with in daily life due to their privilege. We are unaware of mechanisms used to keep power structures in place institutionalized prejudice much of the time. Marriage and the traditional role of women was one such mechanism. Pluto in capricorn is making the younger generation aware of these things even as their meaning shifts and powerful people move their focus around.

  6. Hmm, interesting thoughts for Venus retro!
    Our society’s expectations of both sexes have changed dramatically – women can take care of themselves financially, & access to birth control, & frankly there’s no ‘catch a man’ by the time you’re twenty & settle him down. & the taboo @ divorce is essentially nonexistent (if horribly painful all the same).
    & yeah: men now can just enjoy the smorgasbord indefinitely. People stayed married because there weren’t other options, not ’cause they loved each other truly madly deeply (okay, okay, some did/do 😉 )
    There were lots of toxic marriages, just mind blowing icky sad stuff – yet ”till death did they part’

    I think people want the fantasy not the reality of ‘partnering’ and/or they are more afraid of being alone rather than truly desiring what a load no term monogamous relationship entails.

    Both sexes have a tough time with the image of what we oughta be versus who we are. I am quite glad I’m not a young man in this society – I don’t think there’s the best role models out there to guide them in what it means to harness all that pure testosterone driven male energy. However, I also think the whole ‘boys will be boys’ just a big lame excuse for bad behavior & condoning, allowing it.
    Anywho, any guy whining that all women are toxic needs to do some soul searching. And stop whining…..

    • ‘Both sexes have a tough time with the image of what we oughta be versus who we are.’

      I think you sum it up well. It seems like for many people the pain of relationships is they csnt get the total happiness they wanted.

  7. I rarely post on the Blog side…. but this topic hits Home.

    I have the foregone conclusion that women of my age (50’s) want their men to have a job that can keep up with their spending (the woman’s spending). I suppose that is the “flip side of the coin”…. my fellow guys (age group) want women who never gain weight and can “cook as good as grandma”.

    Both are unrealistic….. and not entirely without merit.

    I suspect the actions of many “divorce courts” ((aka: Family Courts)) in many states favoring the wife regardless of any “proof” regarding her “fitness”….. this, too, is harming potential marriages.

    I can’t blame Young Men (20’s-30’s) for not wanting to “tie the knot”…. not after seeing how men of my age group have been treated.

    • What i always wonder is how they expect them not to gain weight while cooking like grandma.. look at grandmas appearance and wonder why these women have to eat roughage all the time

    • In your experience maybe you find women to be gold diggers but that is just your experience. There are plenty of women who are the opposite. And I am one of them. I value love above money.

  8. Men work an awful lot at making themselves look like idiots as well.
    I am yet to meet a man that is not in some kind of arrangement that suits him (maybe marriage, maybe a long term engagement, maybe something very flexible, according to their preferences). Women also have the option to couple but most of the times not under their conditions (maybe because their conditions are too strict or maybe because they don’t seem to be able to negotiate a favorable partnership).
    Anyway, no matter how bad women are, statistically, there are more women in the world than men and that translates that the latter automatically having more options.

  9. Let’s not forget that people used to have a much shorter lifespan than we do now. In the past a great deal of you short life was spent surviving. You didn’t have the luxury or the time to get bored with your partner. Now we live longer and a relation ship that lasts a lifetime has gone from a 15 year relationship to a potential 50+ year relationship. That’s a lot of time to grow apart, change, and get bored.

  10. I’ve been thinking about that a lot because lot of women around me seem to desperately be looking for a relationship but no one is good enough. I, on the other hand don’t want to be in one and the possiblities just keep knocking on my door which I find really strange.
    It seems to me that women are nowadays emotionally toxic and are projecting it thus turning men away and basically ensuring no one will want a relationship with them.

      • That women want to be emotionally taken care of so they don’t have to do it themselves and when they finally find a man that falls in love with them, they use all kinds of emotional blackmail to get what they want. But I also think that kind of behaviour is probably unconsciously recognized by men so they don’t want to be in relationships anymore.

          • Hmmm. Is it that they can’t parse or self regulate their own emotions and act out to get precisely the care they want? Im projecting cause thats me. Like they cant be emotionally self responsible. Seems like an issue of learning healthy adult self regulation

            It seems to me like that is due to the uncomplicated image of relationships sold as the ultimate source of satisfaction that will make you happy. And perhaps many come to it a bit emotionally broken and hungry like me. Or dont have enough experience working through their emotions with others. Dont know if id ascribe it to this specific generation.

            • Perhaps there is a wrong image of relationships sold to us. But synastry is an old art, already used during centuries, wich knew only arranged marriages. For what reason and purpose if not for finding partners for happy relationships?
              .
              Simply consider Moon and Cancer in the synastry for emotional compatibility. Then you should get precisely the care you want. Although I don’t know by experience. I will probably never know it this way.

  11. If you want children, a family you need a healthy relationship with a mam. There will always be washing, cleaning, cooking, chasing laundry, as well as keeping an eye on grades and your kids behavior. Family is hard work, commitment and sacrifices. I don’t think women are toxic so much as selfish. The illusion that the media portrays that women can have it all and still have perfect, hair and nails, figure and perfect home creates the potential for toxicity. Therefore I blame Neptune
    in the illusions created in the media. Maybe Pluto in traditional Capricorn will put things straight. . .or make it worse. 😉

    • Agree 1000 percent. I figured this out way back when Pluto was transiting my Sun and Mars over 25 years ago. Even then, it took me a long time to work out the “healthy” part.

      My Sun sign, the royalty of the Zodiac, is typically out of touch with everyday needs. Plus the “you can have it all” message was really hammered into my generation. Neptune went into Capricorn when we were coming of age (I was a young teen). Pluto is running roughshod over that illusion.

      • True… there’s so much pressure to be more than we are, constantly. That how can we even settle into love when we are constantly running toward something, and any from not being awesome.. all the time. Hmm

    • Well Jimmer, perhaps women think they can have the perfect family and the perfect figure, hair, nails etc and be the perfect woman because there is pressure to be all that. The media is to blame,yes but 70% men cheating outside the marraige sort of sends a message too, doesnt it?

    • This vision seems to indicate women being responsible for everything, home and work. Why is there not any division of home tasks in this idea? Plus having a perfect figure to be an apppealing sex object for their man rather than any other reason. I dont really think it’s an idea that harms men.. rather a continuation of a patriarchal vision thats bad for women.
      I dont really see a solution to this. I also dont see Americans as a people whos society provides them a model for a happy life..

      • There has to be some compromise somewhere, says me with a stellium in Libra. I don’t mean compromise in an intolerable situation. If the relationship is relatively “normal” and healthy, someone has to bend sometime.

        People are too selfish today. They take off at the first sign of struggle. It’s gotten beyond ridiculous.

  12. I dont know why men dont want to partner. I think there is more leeway now and less demand to be married. Its not as expected.
    I believe the dating apps are skewed in mens favor and they can serial date. Both casual sex and monogamy arent great for women. Both are sort of patriarchal run off. There isnt really a model of courtship ideal for women i think.

  13. I dont know. It seems to me that The whole culture is toxic right now. There is no use pointing the finger at either sex.
    Right now no one in our culture seems happy. The concentration of wealth in this country makes it extremely hard to focus on relationships. Working to make a standard living demands both sexes survive by working all sorts of hours, being at bosses beck and call, relocating instead of putting down roots or staying close to family and friends. These factors cause people to not have the opportunity and staying power a relationship requires. I know it sounds crazy but Maybe one of the things needed to rebuild our relationships is a stable economy so people can stay put to do so.

  14. Women are toxic, yep. As the saying goes “b”’es be crazy”. Also, women are not as willing to make compromises as they once were, compromises that would make relationships easier.

    • We just need to admit that men are better at some things. We’ve had so many years of “women’s liberation” and it’s been disasterous for everyone. (Although cases of poisoning did go down with no-fault divorce laws. That may be correlation not causation though)

      • @beth, I was just talking to my husband and his male friends over this, too. We’ve been watching “Grand designs UK” which are about building houses all over the UK, and many of them are males who have a “vision” of what their homes will look like. Many of their partners/wives have short term, “now” and find the lofty ideas too far off, and prefer the now. Why fix it if it’s not broken? But after the design and plans are done, which sometimes can take a couple years or more, the home is very beautiful. There are women who have future designs, and the one woman who did, was the boss of the partnership. lol she had this masculine way about her too, and to be honest, I didn’t like her end result due to the fact that her style is too modern for my taste and too eccentric/far out. She was a woman who looked maybe in her 60s with lots of tattoos, so I thought wow, she must be a wild child, back in the hippy days of the 60s and 70s maybe.
        anyway, men generally are stronger, which is why you mostly see Male construction workers not female. I hardly ever see a group of women doing construction work or building of a house or planning one. I did read of one once, in the newspaper, and it was a group of lesbians who built a small home.
        so I wonder if male in general, have brains that are more “visionary” than that of women. hopefully I don’t sound like i’m taking sides, but trying to be understanding between the differences of male and female brain.

      • You are also making a lot of undefined and unsubstantiated generalizations. Such as ‘btches be crazy’ and ‘men are better at some things.’ Well then how and what is your proof?

        Id argue that womens lib is a reaction to patriarchy and didnt really build anything new. There have been personal victories, but male female relations have evolved in both positive and negative ways. I do think that sexual liberation (casual sex) without a more egalitarian romantic paradigm has hurt many women.

        I dont know what the ideal way of life is. I do know that before people were pressured to stay in relationships. I dont always think a ‘greatest generation’ family was perfect or reared healthy happy children.

          • I think thats due to conditioning from childhood as much as anything. (Parents discourage girls from games that stimulate spatial awareness and planning such as blocks.) The games boys are pointed to often build stem skills earlier.
            Also the image of STEM being a mans game has tended to put women off.
            By the way IM in a STEM profession.

          • Hmmmm… maybe this is not worth it to say, but… I’ve learned that in other countries, not with a culture focused on perceived innate talent or giftedness of a child, but more focused on effort, the gender representation in STEM equals out more. Like it’s also perceived as a good thing, not embarrassing, to be nerdy in math, so they let their smart-flags fly. Here in the US, it dips in the adolescent years. There it doesn’t dip. Weird huh. Math is essentially learned with a lot of trial and error. Learning something hard is just about how you perceive it.

    • Depends on the woman. If I could find even some of what I wanted, I’d probably put up with a hell of a lot.

    • Women made compromises in the past because they had to to survive. We were DEPENDENT on men. I’m not trying to be rude, but how can you crack open a single history book and not see this? Do you honestly think women compromised more in the past because our sweet little hearts wanted to? Come on.

      And your ‘bi*ches be crazy’ comment says more about you and your perception of women than it does about women as a whole. Calling women crazy if you are a woman yourself doesn’t grant you ‘cool points’ with men, fyi. It sounds pathetic and self-hating.

  15. I don’t think it’s the women’s fault. I think, if anything, it has to do with the fact that women are fighting back over being oppressed for so long and are less willing to submit to a man just because he’s a man. A man has to earn the respect of a woman nowadays. There’s much more awareness into the psychological underpinnings of relationships than there were years ago and there are also many more options available for women to make it on their own without a man.

    • Okay but define “oppression.” Women make up more than half of the population. How can more than half of the population be oppressed without their consent?

      • Oppression-
        -prolonged cruel or unjust treatment or control.

        -the state of being subject to unjust treatment or control.

        -mental pressure or distress

        The fact is, until very recently, women had few opportunities outside of rearing children and other domestic duties. The had very few opportunities to escape an oppressive situation. Many men exploited this which caused a great number of women to be oppressed.

        If course there have always been good men who did not oppress women, but it used to be easier to do.

        Nowadays, due to the economy in the US, I think, men and women alike are a little off their rocker. I think people in general have less opportunity and are stressed.

        • I’m a little off my rocker myself, sorry for being challenging.

          I guess the next question that people would ask is “what’s wrong with rearing children and domestic duties?” or “Life isn’t perfect for anyone, look at soldiers, at least women didn’t have to go to war!”

          I’m not wanting to live in a time where I’d have to have a father’s permission to rent an apartment and stuff, but I do like to consider all sides of something.

          • Whats wrong is when that is your only and default choice rather than having every way of life open to you. And being considered subordinate to your husband. And your husband not helping raise the kids. There are pretty obvious answers to these questions. It was a poisoned cultural paradigm

  16. It’s a complex one with both genders having their fair share of blame and toxic people.

    Answering the question raised by the blog, I’d say a lot of men do want to partner but they don’t want to get involved with someone who projects blame, has unresolved emotional baggage and constantly nags them to change. By the time you reach your 40s that’s 99% of what’s available in the dating market.

    Generally men just want a woman who is fun to be around and doesn’t worry too much about stuff. Unfortunately a lot of women worry unnecessarily about the opinions of others, create mountains out of molehills and won’t ask directly for what they want but then get angry when a guy isn’t a mindreader. Often they’re looking for a guy to constantly prop up their self-esteem and give them praise which eventually becomes draining.

    That said, 99% of guys don’t realise how easy it is to make a woman happy – things like keeping in contact, talking about day-to-day life, consulting to get their stamp of approval on nights out, doing household tasks when they are asked to do them or better still just doing them, the occasional compliment, remembering that they’ve been to the hairdresser etc, etc. Or to put it another way treating women like they are an equal partner and respected.

    • Interesting, BlueMagoo.
      I wonder though because people claim they prize intelligence and insight but i think guys dont. They want you to be fun and positive.
      Woody Allen has a very entertaining persona based on neurotic observation and so do many comedians of both genders.
      I prize this in myself and it makes me sad that sometimes dudes want someone with the personality of a silky golden retriever.

  17. I ‘ve been out of the loop for sometime. I had a special needs kid and circumstances that seemed to prohibit love affair. Since I’ve been out its shocking how insensitive they feel. Maybe I’ve been home with the cat too long but the teasing to see you get all wound up, trying to frighten, spinning stories to get me going and what seems to be a total inability to relate to me as friend makes them very unattractive. Maybe this behavior is insecurity due to my age but they all, at this point in time, in this life seem like a bunch of fixer uppers.

  18. Women may not be toxic, but the divorce laws certainly are. I’m Sun/Mars in Cap, so I though it out, but I’m an attorney….

  19. The expectations are building… And I think it runs on both ends. Because both men and women expect perfection from each other, they can’t recognize humanity when it’s sitting across from them. At the same time as they want someone to partner with, they want someone to save them from their circumstances, to sweep them off their feet. The sweeping might happen but then a human being remains, with all their messy emotions that don’t fit their idea of a “perfect man”. We are incredibly scared of being tied down with someone who isn’t “the best”. At the same time, we are also scared of being exposed for who we are: flawed individuals with messy emotions. So, we appear crazy, while men appear aloof.

    And we shoot ourselves in the feet, before anyone else gets to do so. No one wants to show themselves. And why? When many more of us don’t know how to connect and get to know another person, without cringing away in horror… without running away for our personal / psychological safety… without forgiving them for who they are.

    The more we expect ourselves to be perfect and robotic, the less like individuals we are… We stop healing, and therefore we stop growing… and learning about each other. Something along those lines….

    • As for men, it’s the same: an image of perfection. It may be an woman’s idea of perfection for themselves (society’s ideal of you better have it all and do it all or something is wrong with you) is affecting the ability to connect.

      I feel it’s a combination of

      1) media (look and act like these people at you will be desired–includes Stepford wife ideal and rich man that saves the day and is never weak),

      2) consumerism (buy and have these ideas of perfection, so your life will be perfect–including choosing a spouse), and

      3) fear of being seen (I am not perfect. I never want to be in a vulnerable position so that someone sees this and pushes me away).

      We so easily reject ourselves, and so we easily reject others. But also, we are all effing scared of being hurt, and honestly, we’re scared of being in love, which is not always wonderful. Being close also means someone may inadvertently see every scar.

      If we are not used to being loved, we may become suspicious of a good thing. We may bury ourselves and not connect, say hi, give a hug, ask how your day was.

      But recognizing that shaky on the edge feeling in ourselves, without shutting down and demanding others to be “what they’re supposed to be” is what makes us be open to love…

      You don’t have to do these things… there is no “have to” in the old traditional sense. As in.. You can’t make anyone else do or say anything… and vice versa, no one can make you do or say anything… We are responsible for our own behavior. But we can ask others for the things we may need, and wait and see if they respond. They may be asking you for the things they may need… and waiting for your response. Do I trust you? Do you trust me? I need a friend, can you be a friend too, since I trust you more than my friends?

      • Essentially… are you my person? Can I also be your person? How can we confide in each other without blame?

        I have these problems, can I trust you to listen, be here for me for a little while? Can I trust myself to do the right thing for you and listen, and be there for you for a little while?

  20. This relationship sticky wickett was and continues to be a result of social engineering, a force using media to manipulate us. Until we see that, we are merely a pawns in a game to sell more products to people who feel bad about themselves.

    The Age of Pisces [love others as yourself] is giving way to the Aquarian Age, thus the paradigm is shifting to: “Love Others as They Want to be Loved.” This new focus is on understanding others’ needs and giving them what they want and are able receive. We can’t assume that what works for us will work for others. Also, loving others as yourself may often fall short, especially if you don’t love yourself very much. In that case, you may not have a lot to give.

    • Yes haha exactly… I don’t know about social engineering, since that could mean it is consciously happening. Maybe it is somebody high up making all these media decisions (the easier one to see), maybe it’s just like what they say: it’s just what sells unfortunately (the harder process to see)…

  21. wow elsa,
    thank you for shedding the light on what a lot of men have to deal with both in relationships and from society. Thank you for have the balls to write about something so honest. I speak to a lot of men and they all say women are scary, dishonest, and only out to get paid. Women are delusional and really will never face the realities of what men have to deal with in relationships. If women can not find relationships then women need to blame the ones responsible for it…WOMEN.

    • You’re welcome. If I were a man, I’m pretty sure I would choose to be single. The risk/reward just doesn’t add up. With exceptions, of course. The exceptions stand out, blindingly so.

      I also agree with the social engineering claim. So if you can’t get on top this, then you get to be a victim, which is also unappealing.

    • No, you’re wrong. Women finally have the freedom and power to not be slaves to men, and this is what men are reacting to. No person or group with power likes to lose it; the time period we’re in now involves a set of serious growing pains for men who want women to be financially hobbled and dependent on them so that women are less likely to stand up for themselves.

      And women are scary?? You’ve got to be kidding. And for every dishonest women out to get paid, there’s a dishonest man feigning interest in a longterm relationship just to get laid.

      The misogyny in some of these posts is astounding.

  22. The only thing I have to say about this is that I was and am still amazed and grossed out by the lack of respect in the dating scene. I’m a heterosexual woman so all my experience was with men, so I’m commenting from that viewpoint. I can’t be unbiased in that way. But I just don’t think looking at it from this viewpoint of who’s more toxic has done anyone any good. I think we just need (as a whole) to work on respecting and honoring our fellow human beings.

    The whole idea of gender roles is becoming a moot point anyway. It’s kind of like having a judgement about what was happening twenty years ago. Some people can’t really accept what the transition is that we are going through as a species, and they seem to be having the hardest time understanding. I had a hard time too at one point. I realized that all of our customs, even ones based on biology (like child making), are pretty arbitrary. I just happen to come here at this time in space and a lot of customs here don’t make a ton of sense to me anyway. If I had one lament it would be the absence of honor and respect in the courting rituals of this culture. It’s pretty gross right now.

    • It depends where you live when it comes to gender roles. I wouldn’t assume they’re going away at all. Despite the usefulness of astrology I don’t think all of history is going to a pre-determined point. I would assume roles will continue changing but as long as there are real differences that can be pointed to, people will develop opinions and stereotypes about them.

      • I didn’t mean to say that gender roles were going away. I don’t know if they are or aren’t. But they’re obviously transforming. I just said it was a moot excercise to dissect them from a standard from twenty years ago or to look at through that lens. Denial and resistance that they are transforming is where the struggle lies for the people that are struggling. Im just in acceptance of it all. The old paradigm is not that appealing to me anyway. Or it’s no more or less appealing than another alternative. I saw both my parents get married and divorced five times each and dishonor every single one of those. Or put themselves in positions of allowing their spouse to dishonor them. I don’t think that’s because they got married. It wasn’t the concept of marriage that compelled them to destruction. It was their lack of respect for themselves and/or their spouse.

        Like I said, the only thing I really care about is honor and respect. Finding the sanctity in relationships. If that looks like “traditional” marriage, great. If it looks like anything else, great.

        Just in general I think labeling anyone as toxic is the opposite of what I would like to embody and perceive in my world. I can understand the perspective. I used to label all men as…anything and everything, including toxic . What a limiting perspective it was and so hurtful to myself. The end of the road that that kind of thinking leads down is a brick wall of “we are all pieces of shit and we’re all toxic “. If I percieve you toxic then I have to look at my own toxicity. If I call you an amazing creation of the essence of the universe then I can look at how I am an amazing creation of the essesnce of the universe.

        I dont know if this makes sense. It’s Just my point of view.

  23. In my opinion, cheap and meaningless sex via digital dating and easy access to porn has perverted intimacy and courtship for men these days. Coincide that with ridiculous romantic ideals propagated by the media, it’s no wonder people have unreal expectations and are viewing each other as “toxic”. Nobody really has the patience and stamina these days for a real flesh and blood being with their flaws, warts, and baggage when they can get their rocks off for free. People in general don’t want the responsibility of sharing a life with another broken being (newsflash: we all are!) because it’s messy and it’s not very romantic when the Neptune fog lifts and all that Saturnian responsibility sets in.

    It’s a sad thing to see men and women turning on each other like this. I think all people doing their synastry beforehand would help so much with gauging long-term compatibility and helping to lessen divorce rates and disillusionment.

    • I also wanted to suggest to do the synastry beforehand. You were quicker. Although I think that synastry could do more than lessen divorce rates and disillusionment. Why not use it to find the ideal partner, who doesn’t exist according to most people here?

    • Agree with the first few sentences. I think the difference is marriage and learning to deal with someone is less compulsory. I dont know that earlier generations were emotionally tougher in entering new partnerships or more forgiving. Sometimes they were kids marrying kids.. having kids because its what they were supposed to do.

  24. I work with a lot of young dudes. But theyre not typical of my area. Many live with their family and still have girlfriends and are saving up to move out.
    Im just focused on how none of them wanna do it with me

  25. There are many factors but I think it just comes down to supply and demand. There are less men. 49%/51%, population-wise. They get to be the picky ones until it shifts back the other way. Basically, they don’t want to partner because they just don’t have to.

    • I explained it already several times to men, who wanted a girlfriend and couldn’t find any, and here I explain it again: Women live in worldwide average seven years longer than men. The more developed the countries, the smaller the difference, but the difference is at least five years. So the number of 49%/51% says only that there are more aged women! Of the age, where the men have already died. In fact the difference would have to be at least 15% for describing the difference caused by the terminal years. So, in age groups, where people still mate, there are MANY more men than women! There’s even not considered yet have different spans of fertility, which worsens the situation even more. Of course it’s only worse for men! But it’s still even worse for men because there are some additional factors with less impact. For example divorced women with children usually have kept the children. Nothing makes a woman more unattractive then having another man’s child.
      .
      So, if any side, then women are the picky ones. That also won’t shift back. Except if most of the medical knowledge of today is lost, for example how to do a sex specific abortion.
      .
      But men still don’t have to partner because nobody has to. Women also don’t have to. It isn’t a duty. But men want to. They can’t because the women don’t exist. Unlike in the case of Kri, who is surrounded by dudes.

  26. I feel like it depends on the city. The coastal cities have always been a bit tough. LA is full of beautiful women. NY has more women than men (refer to Garance Dore’s video on men dating in NY for a bummer assessment.) The competition is high.
    Men get lots of choices and opportunities for sex on tinder. Per dating rules they decide, if they dont call then its a low stakes way of saying no. I dont want to go into how they have the upper hand with this stuff even if they have to use the cold approach.
    According to movies, men dont want to partner if they dont have a compelling reason to stop seeking casual sex.
    According to the men i know, many are in relationships, some are complaining as i sit there and listen and feel bad. One guy at work loves picking up chicks. He has an easy confidence and loves weightlifting.

    • Neither I nor any of my male friens would ever have wanted casual sex. But the choices and opportunities on tinder, which you mentioned, show that women want casual sex. Those are of course incompatible with any of my male friends or me. How can we make sure to avoid those? A difficult task in a time, where men aren’t allowed to critizise women for anything.

      • Depends on where you live. My friends and most of the women i speak to dont want casual sex. I think some people use tinder or okcupid or happn for dating. I recommend meeting women at meetups or events or classes i guess. Where i am it is SUPER DIFFICULT to meet people.. for me.. and for other chicks just regular difficult. Because my area is very non-community. I imagine it would be easier in Austin TX or Ann Arbor MI or Asheville for me to meet or be around people i liked.

          • I’m German, so I have no idea what your non-community area is like. Or the mentioned cities. I can only tell you that in Germany you would meet only aged people at religious places. Classes would have been a possibility if I would only have understood at school and university that these institutions are for making connections, not for learning.

  27. Wow! WELL SAID ELSA!!!

    This post reminded me of my brother and his situation. My brother is a handsome guy, really. I’m not just saying this because he is my brother. Along with his good looks, he is SUCH a nice person, to everyone he meets. He would give the shirt off his back. He has had trouble finding a significant other.
    He is 34, he has a really great job. He was living with his ex girl friend for a while, and paying all the bills. I always got a bad sense about this girl but just let it go. Well, he decided he wanted to buy a house, because he was sick of his money going into rent. ( He was renting in Hoboken so the rent alone was over $2500 a month) His ex literally told him, that if he was to buy a house she would dump him, because she wanted to go to grad school in Florida and expected him to help her with rent.
    He was taken back that she said this to him, and he told her he is buying a house anyway. Well, then she calls him and tells him to wait a year to buy a home, so that she can save money for grad school, and then he can do what he wants and be out of her life.

    I kid you not, she actually said this. What makes matters worst is she was working as a nurse the whole time they lived together, and never gave any of her earnings towards bills. She spent all her cash on frivolous things and let my brother take the weight of responsibility.

    My brother wisely let her go and bought a beautiful house, a fixer upper. He made this house beautiful, is doing great with his career, and decided to stop dating for a while. Which is wise.

      • @Kri that means your brother’s wife is still with him. with a rent of 2500 dollars that’s not cheap, meaning michelle’s brother is making godly gobs of money a month and not care about who he supports. lol
        that’s another thing that should be addressed in men and women not wanting to marry or get together anymore. What if their future in laws or brothers and sisters /family members disapprove? they already have an “ideal” way of wanting a special person for their loved ones. I know I would feel the same way. and maybe it’s better to stay single so you don’t have to deal with trying to “please” the family too. lol how to act proper and what is best to be liked. so much stress! forget that! stay single that way don’t get any flak from the in laws. 😀

        • Ive seen people having to deal with the in laws more in traditional cultures. This gal played second fiddle to the mom of a Bangladeshi guy.

          I think people now want to be free of constraints. They move away from in laws. In my brothers wifes case, he is entangled with her in laws. She ignores avoids or yells at us. She is a piece of work.

          • @kri that is terrible. yelling and ignoring. i feel for you.

            as for moving away from the in laws, in one of the episodes of “grand designs UK” one couple wanted to have their house built next door to their in laws. (the man’s in law and he designed the building) my husband said to me, man they really love their parents. lol told me, that he loves his mother but didn’t want us to buy that house right next door. but we do live down the street from her. 😀

            • Yeah. She is a pill and makes it hard for us to visit often. I purely ignore her. They actually live in the same house as her parents. She treats her side of the family well and ours like sht

  28. Femininity is often looked down upon so quite a few women wish to be more like men to succeed (a lot of them probably naturally are more masculine than given credit for). Men and masculinity is more respected and always has been (whoever says otherwise is deluded). These days women have the opportunity to live lives like men always could, however if they do that, they are again looked down upon. The benchmark is always masculinity. If you’re not a man, you can not do right. I completely understand how some women are upset with men, since men hold the power pretty much everywhere. Most men will also not want to acknowledge that inequality exists, they’d rather blame it on women. Did anyone just read the story about a male and female colleague who switched their email signatures and saw how vastly different their clients’ reactions to them was after? I can see why some women are upset with that power imbalance. ALSO, since women can act like men and have casual sex, there is no need for men to couple if they can get what they are after without losing their power and money. Oh the greediness.

    Sometimes I feel like you hate on women while you say you don’t.

    • YES. Especially to your last sentence. I’ve been following some more traditional forums like Red Pill Women on Reddit, and it’s hilarious about people will pine for the days when women were more feminine (i.e. soft, yielding, emotional, warm, and receptive), but they absolutely refuse to admit that they hold those feminine qualities in disdain! Even the women who claim to appreciate femininity will speak negatively of those qualities when they’re least aware of it. When was the last time we heard or saw someone being appreciated for being soft and emotional?? If anything, folks like that are denigrated and vulnerable to being taken advantage of.

      I told someone recently that the traditional women’s sphere of caring and nurturing for others is something that everyone wants but no one respects. This is why women have been exploited so much.

      • Ive looked into that forum and it fried my brain. Also the self improvement one and it breaks my heart how women arent pointed to ways to self improve or ‘be their own hero’ at an early age. Were kind of conditioned to ‘be’ and not do. Or embark on a heros journey

  29. Some of the comments here are disgusting, I’m sorry. Women are not toxic. I’m so tired of hearing men complain now that women don’t have to or want to put up with their self-centered BS anymore. Why are people here forgetting that up until the last few decades, women were SECOND-CLASS CITIZENS? Most of the time, women had to obey men because they had no other choice. Their livelihood depended on men so of course we had to play the perfect courtiers to get by. We couldn’t open bank accounts on our own, we couldn’t get certain jobs, and at one point, women couldn’t even get educations. Now, it’s more possible than ever for women to be financially independent and able to design their lives the way they want without depending on the goodwill of a man, but folks are upset.

    It seems like people who complain about how women have changed have forgotten the last 1,000 years of history and the reasons why feminism came about in the first place. Plus, how are women toxic when men have started every single war this Earth has ever seen, commit the vast majority of violent crimes, and have historically had few to no qualms about exercising their power over women, both in and outside the home. Finally, we don’t have to cater to men’s selfish BS just to be able to eat and care for our children and guys want to boo-hoo that women don’t care about them as much. The hell?

    Honestly, I’m glad that men as a whole are getting their comeuppance for once. And I’m tired of this expectation that women have to alter their behavior to compel men into acting a certain way. If men don’t want to commit, that’s fine too, as marriage has proven to be more emotionally and financially disadvantageous to women anyway. Another commenter already mentioned that people are who are wealthier and more independent tend to marry later or not at all. Right. Because with greater access to resources, marriage is less necessary. So if men want to run around sleeping with whoever in lieu of long term commitment, that’s fine. The joke will be on them when they end up 40+ and alone since studies have shown that men are less happy being single in their later years than women are.

    I agree that there are a lot of emotionally irresponsible women who depend on men too much to make them feel valuable and needed, etc. But those are individual women; they do not represent women as a whole. It’s interesting that when men display bad behavior, it’s spoken of as if it’s just those individual men, but if a group of guys come across immature women, suddenly all women are immature and toxic. Pure gynophobic BS!

    • I agree with most of what you’re saying. But I don’t want my son, if I have one one day, being blamed for some things, some a$$holes, did centuries, and millenias, ago.

      Those sexist and misogynist things are still going on today, but I believe people are individuals, and should be judged accordingly, not because of ‘sins of the fathers.’

        • I sometimes forget that women were treated differently, and horribly, in history. I guess it’s like someone treating someone bad, individually. You don’t just get over that over night.

          You’re right, most of the time it’s not blame, but plain history. Some Feminists aren’t good at articulating it in a way that doesn’t divide the sexes.

          It’s a delicate balance, learn your history, but then how do you communicate it in a way that doesn’t come off demonizing and blaming?

          Like you said, most people aren’t blaming, but some activists aren’t good at articulating history and their points of views.

      • There are a lot of women on here, more women than men id postulste. Also ive noticed a, maybe not antifeminist, but a fair amount of women on here suspicious of what feminism has wrought and questioning whether it does good. I am this way to an extent, but ive become more… sure that it isnt feminism necessarily that is at fault.

        The word ‘toxic’ seems to get bandied about in pop psychology or Jezebel lately like ‘triggered’ and i dont see what it means.

    • Most women are nurturing loving creatures who work full time, drive another 15 hours a week back and forth to work, care for their children and do MOST of the fucking housework, shopping, yard work, laundry and errands.

      When I graduated from high school I was told (by society) that I would waste my time on college because I would become a wife and mother and not use it. Well, I became a wife and mother. Then, the game changed and I was told that without college I would be nothing. I needed a career and a full time job.

      So, I went back to school, took my kids with me, took a full time job and I can tell you this….I was still responsible for all the same things I was responsible for when I was at home with my kids. We both worked the same amount of hours but when I got home my real job started. Nothing changed for him.

      Not always, but usually, a sick baby with a 102 temp wants it MOTHER….both have to get up and go to work tomorrow but MOTHER is the one up walking the floors with the sick baby.

      I did this double duty for years. Most of the years of my life. I don’t know a woman personally that had it any different.

      I am not a parade marching feminist. But I call bullshit when I see it. Things have changed. Men can get all the free ass they want and easily today, they don’t have to pay for it. If one wont do it the other one will. Its as easy as pushing some buttons on a phone….boom….there’s your piece of ass.

      I think some of my sisters give it away too easily. Its normal today to just sleep with anyone…

      I can feel my grandmothers rolling in their graves! They married, then they were TRAPPED. Neither were allowed a drivers license. Neither ever drove a car. Neither worked outside the home so they didn’t have money of their own. My grandfathers did what they damn well pleased. I watched it. Then, I watched it happen to my mother and my friends mothers.

      The women that raised me said….YOU will not be trapped. You will not live the dogs life we have lived. They promoted that I rise up and make sure I could care for myself and my children, myself.

      If being able to stand on my own two feet, having a say in how the money is spent in my home, refusing to do every thing that has to do with cleaning in a home where we both bring in the money makes me toxic, my husband can kiss my toxic BEHIND. I am not his mother, I am his partner. I am worth more than waiting on him hand and foot after I work 60 hours a week. He is a man, not a baby.

      Women were shit on in every generation as far back as I, my mother and my grandmothers could remember.

      I am just crazy about my husband. I want him to be happy. I want to help him grow in every way. I want him to have clean clothes, a clean comfortable home, and as stress free a life as I can provide BUT…I expect the same in return. And, will not settle for less. If I do…then I will be bitter….and it will make me appear toxic.

      My grandfathers treated my precious grandmothers like they owned them. When they died neither of my grandmothers shed a tear. We are talking about women that were married to men in excess of 50 years. They were both free for the first time in their life. Free from living with a boss ….free from having to ask for money. They were gentle, loving, nurturing and kind. And, trapped.

      If I were single I wouldn’t want to marry THEM. I am not a servant. I am not a mattress. I am not a short order cook. I am a loving partner willing to walk through life with this man and love him for as long as he is willing to treat me with the same respect and love I willingly give him. Anything less….he’s out.

      I would rather live alone.

      We are supposed to work 60 hours a week, maintain children, yards and gardens, cook, clean, shop, be a room mother at school, walk the floors with sick babies and wear a fucking size 2 teddy at all times while we are doing it….while they are cleaning their teeth with a fork and scratching their big ass belly in front of the TV. NO ….NO….and Hell no.

      I am the mother of sons. Youngest calls to complain… laundry isn’t done….my response….your arms are not broken and you wear your own clothes. Its not like you have to carry them down to a river in a basket on your head and beat them on a rock. Wash them yourself.

      • I agree with most of what you said, but sadly, the idea that if you refuse to accept disrespectful treatment you’ll find love with a good partner is false in my experience.

        Not every woman is forced to navigate the excruciating pain of finding herself romantically alone for years or decades at a time. I think it’s a lot easier to hold off sexually and prioritize dignity over temporary connection if you just happen to meet high quality prospective mates more frequently. The playing field has never been equal. A well-fed person isn’t going to need to do what a starving person does.

  30. Also, after going back and re-reading some comments, I still see some myths being peddled here:

    1) Divorce laws disproportionately hurt men. When people say this, I’m almost positive they’re thinking of super rich men who get divorced and have to pay their exes some ridiculous amount of money. However, there’s a problem with thinking this is a common scenario — it’s not! It’s been shown multiple times that divorce hurts women financially much more than it hurts men:

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/jan/25/divorce-women-research
    – Quote for reference: “‘The general belief that men get fleeced by their divorces while women get richer and live off the proceeds has long been due for exposure as a pernicious myth,’ said Ruth Smallacombe, a family consultant at Flip. ‘In reality, women often suffer economic hardship when they divorce. In addition, the resentment caused by unfair financial settlements has many knock-on effects, damaging ongoing relationships with former spouses and a woman’s ability to move on with her life.'”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/25/divorce-affects-women-fin_n_840712.html

    This is partially due to the fact that women will reduce their earning potential to take time off for children and the fact that men often have several years of work experience and a higher earnings cap than women. It’s also not always the case that men have to split their assets with women, especially if they’re self-employed.

    2) Women who don’t marry will end up old, alone, and unhappy.
    This is probably the biggest lie of them all. Multiple studies have shown that it’s actually men who have a harder time dealing with single life, especially as they age. There are theories as to why this is, but I’ve heard (and personally think) it’s due to men having fewer social connections than women and being generally less able to care for themselves as women. Regardless, this idea that women need to be in long term relationships or marriages to be happy is absolutely, patently false. Women are actually healthier, happier, and RICHER when they stay single:

    https://psmag.com/the-paradox-of-declining-female-happiness-a4cf6acf45b4#.mvqxd7dtm
    http://www.livescience.com/56114-older-unmarried-women-happy-as-married.html
    http://www.apa.org/about/gr/issues/women/depression.aspx
    – Quote for reference: “Married women have higher rates of depression but the REVERSE is true for men.”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/03/14/marriage-is-more-beneficial-for-men-than-women-study-shows/

    So if men want to remain butthurt about feminism and not commit, the joke’s on them. I’m sorry to be harsh, but I simply can’t stand to hear this blame being placed on women simply because we don’t want to be second-class citizens anymore. Save the ‘b-b-but women are so emotional and selfish’ crap. If the minute women are given the power for self-determination they stop catering to men, maybe that should tell us something about how women really felt back in the day when traditional relationships were more common and women were expected to cater to their men. Here’s a hint: it’s because we had to and not necessarily because we wanted to.

    • I’ve observed a lot of what you are presenting here, wecarealot. I think the traditional system (all the systems that are spawns of the patriarchy), benefits men more, by a long shot. At least seemingly. But in essence they’ve had to deny a big part of themselves to survive in this society, so I don’t see it as a big win. Maybe materially, but not in terms of spiritual evolution.

      This transition that we are going through (fall of the patriarchy and rise of a more balanced society), is hard for a lot of people who value yang over yin. And since men have been more conditioned to be yang, it’s kind of demoralizing to some of them. But it shouldn’t be. Theres benefit in it for all of us. It has nothing to do with men vs women. It’s a transcendence of that whole dynamic.

  31. Arguably, the greatest threat to controlling a population is the powerful synergy between a man and woman. That is the reason for the concerted and deliberate attempts to destroy that bond.
    Look around you and see that very divisiveness continually promoted by your media going on 40 years now.

    So many of us operate at the ‘me’ level which
    is where we are deliberately diverted to
    focus on the emotional. There is SO much we don’t know about how this game of life is engineered at all levels beyond ourselves. It pains me to see the genders continually at each others throats, avoiding this fact, and acting “12”.

    Ex: someone floods our neighborhood air with sulfur(smells like rotten eggs). Reactively we can blame each other for the odor 🙂 or actually find the source. Take a look
    at the programming specifically designed to split us up, fight, argue, feel bad, blame, and spend $$$ to fix damaged self esteems.

    This planned cultural gender war is a PHONY construct for the unaware to stay stuck on stupid. Our attention is being diverted to the wrong place! Ignorance means to “ignore” and its past time to Wake up!

      • Absolutely Kri. The question to ask is “WHO BENEFITS” whenever we’re fighting with each other and mistrusting. It’s not you, it’s not me, wwe’re not the people who win. It’s those who control what we see and hear. Conflict and self denigration $ELL, peace and self worth do not. It’s just a game and until we wake up, we are its victims. Point the finger where it belongs and stop fighting in the sandbox.

  32. I think it’s a mixed bag. We’re very hard on today’s men, and expect quite a lot of emotional maturity from them from a young age, romantically. We are also operating in a time when more in general is expected of men than they’ve ever had to deal with before. So they’re watching their fathers complain about how the woman in their lives just hasn’t spiced up their dinnertime meals with anything new lately, and young man is wondering why he should have to cook, clean, be sympathetic to the trials of his ladyfriends, and not take sexual advantage of women who tend to be more vulnerable (and when young, easily fooled) in that area. He might feel hard done-by. Then, our options for pissing each other off have multiplied. There are a thousand sites I could get to that would upset my husband if I visited. There are men my husband would be upset about me talking to, even if it’s my “right” to speak to whomever I want. I could do or say many things every single day that would slowly break down my relationship. I happened to find a fantastic good country boy who is pretty much the kindest man in the world, but I didn’t get him by expecting the world from him. Constant communication, restructuring our lives, reevaluating our needs, and making sure I don’t say the things that will hurt. Keep in mind, I’m no guru. I’ve destroyed pretty much every romantic relationship I’ve ever had by being really insecure, obnoxious, and by trying to force my way through sheer will and shrieking and tears. I didn’t with him because he made me feel safe from the get-go. So those other guys? Some of it was them being totally unwilling to give me anything I wanted. Some of it was me demanding emotional investment from people unable to give it. But I got lucky and found some kind of sacred balance. He brings out the best in me, and I bring out really good qualities in him.

    • “So they’re watching their fathers complain about how the woman in their lives just hasn’t spiced up their dinnertime meals with anything new lately, and young man is wondering why he should have to cook, clean, be sympathetic to the trials of his ladyfriends, and not take sexual advantage of women who tend to be more vulnerable (and when young, easily fooled) in that area.”

      But see, this is what I find crazy: what you’ve described here is an ADVANTAGE that men have had in the past! It’s as if you’re asking why men feel they should bother with relationships if the woman won’t buckle down and do everything he wants for him — cook, clean, screw him, expect some kind of emotional reciprocity. And if they can’t get that, then finding some naive girl to do it for him is a better option? Insanity. This lends credence to my point that men are upset nowadays because the times have changed and are STILL changing and they no longer have the extreme upper hand in relationships that they’ve once had.

      And I’m not saying that some women don’t screw up relationships by being emotionally wonky and chaotic. That’s absolutely true for some. But what I am saying is that the core reason for men’s current disillusionment with relationships has nothing to do with that. Men had no problem putting up with women’s crazy emotions when women were practically second class citizens who HAD to be in some sort of relationship to survive. Men had the upper hand there, and they knew it, and they used it. So it wasn’t women’s emotional insecurity that was the problem them. Now, men are upset because they are not adjusting to women’s newfound freedom. They’re pissed that they can’t trap women the way they did before.

      And I find it hilarious how you speak so casually of men who consider taking advantage of young women, yet people get outright indignant when women talk of using men for money. It’s insane the way bad behavior and exploitation of others is excused, encouraged, or just plain ignored when men are the perpetrators, but when women see men as meal tickets, men are so justified in being afraid of them. Oh, please.

      I’m honestly stunned that so many women here seem to be in favor of the traditional relationship set up between men and women. It was so unfair, and the only time a woman had options in that scenario was if she had money or came from money. Poor and/or otherwise disadvantaged women were completely screwed (unless they happened to get lucky and get a good guy) ‘back in the day’ when women were the only ones expected to do all the things you listed and still didn’t have their emotional needs met.

      • “, men are upset because they are not adjusting to women’s newfound freedom.”

        thats it, in a nutshell.
        And id add that the freedoms won are personal/social ones (greater employment options, voting, etc.) but there hasnt been an evolved paradigm for social relationships. weve won greater freedom in a patriarchy, built on a foundation where men still have the upper hand. so we havent reinvented and still seem to struggle in the way men and women relate.
        It’s sad when we gain these personal successes and freedoms yet relationships with men are still hard and getting more difficult

        • Agreed. (WeCareALot here. Too lazy to log in on my phone lol). Women have more freedom and therefore need men less, but people haven’t adjusted their framework for male-female relationships. So we are more equal than ever but people are still clinging to the traditional setup that was primarily an ECONOMIC system intended to leave men with the most financial power and women dependent on them.

      • Obviously it’s because these women think agreeing to be submissive puts her at an advantage with men because she’s so agreeable. They aren’t thinking of the implications for everyone, they’re thinking of themselves and how they can lock down their security.

  33. Nobody likes a PITA. Of either gender. Lots of women are dishonest about what they want to give and receive, instead preferring to seal the deal and then adjust things. You can present yourself as a stay at home type who expects to be financially dependent, or as a career type who expects to remain independent even when coupled. And then you can decide to switch!
    Men get to work and either have a dependent family or a working financial partner, again with the risk of her changing her mind. Men never get to change their mind and say, hey I think the kids need me, I’m going to stop working and cut coupons and make homemade jam, why don’t you support us all. I want to see the woman who puts up with that.
    I think it boils down not to marriage, but how much a man wants kids and the price he’ll pay for that.

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