Pluto In Capricorn: Collapse Of Ambition, Death Of The Backbone, Etc.

This is another post on parenting. It may be provocative, I don’t know. It may be asinine for all I know but to me it’s a mind-bender so I thought I would throw it out here.

You may or may not know that satori is an expert on narcissism. I am not. But I listen carefully when she talks about this and some years ago she mentioned a game that people play, “How little will you take?”

In this game, the partner does as little as possible to maintain a relationship with you. Say it is a man and they want to get laid. They don’t really care about you but to keep access to you they will do very minimal things which you opt to accept for whatever your reasons may be. For example, maybe the guy tells you that your eyes are pretty and he may want to have children some day and for that you cook and clean and perform in the bedroom.

Everyone knows someone like this but here’s the quirky thing on my mind. I see kids today (little kids / preteen) who do as little as possible as a matter of routine. They do not strive, they do not try hard or do their best, they do not do a good job or even know what a good job is because their parents and our society does not require this of them. No Saturn, see? There is no discipline.

As real life example, if my son flunks a math test at school, he is allowed to take the test again. I mentioned this to my friend, Ben, who has worked in the school system for 25 years. He said if you flunk the test the 2nd time, you can take it a 3rd time, a 4th time and 5th time. “If you flunk the test 5 times, they will put you in a room with a teacher one-on-one and they will basically take your little hand in theirs and help you fill the answers in,” he explained.

Now I don’t think he was exaggerating. I do think our children, by and large are taught and trained to make a very minimal effort and how do you think this is going to wind up in 10 or 20 years? Will their be a decent husband out there? A decent wife? A decent mother or father? Because in my experience, you really have to work hard to achieve anything, or to develop any character…or self esteem for that matter.

Imagine a society where everyone does as little as they can. It’s laughable. You can’t have a society, or a family or a business or anything else unless you absolutely apply yourself and here we are teaching our kids to do anything but.

These kids are not going to be able to wake up one day and have all the skills that they should have developed during their childhood, be at hand via some sort of magic. This is a horrendous failing as far as I’m concerned. You fail as a parent if you do not teach your children about reality and make sure they have the life skills they will need to sustain themselves both independently and in relationship.

I try to imagine being married to a man who can’t pass a test in 5 tries and whines that it is because the test is too hard or it’s because he’s somehow disadvantaged. I can’t do it. I wouldn’t want to be in a room for twp seconds with a man like that.

Women complain about how little men do now, well what about this next generation? The women who accept so little from men, are raising the boys now, for the most part. You can extrapolate from there.

How do the expectations you place on your children compare to the expectations that were placed on you when you were a child?

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Pluto In Capricorn: Collapse Of Ambition, Death Of The Backbone, Etc. — 53 Comments

  1. I had to raise my three younger sisters, and was expected to make straight A’s in school. I was also expected to keep my mouth shut about being saddled with those babies while in middle school. I was expected to be an adult, because the adults around me failed epically at being such. I have placed no such expectations on my kids, however; I have grown them up saying “Life rewards effort”. You get what you put into something, even if the reward doesn’t emanate from the place you expect it to. The other half of that coin is, knowing where to place one’s energies/efforts for maximum gain. No one likes making a go at something, only to have it turn out horribly wrong. Life’s a hell of a lot more complicated than being told ‘butch up, kid’, and expecting the best. A keen eye and a thick skin go a long way, and these can only be developed over time.

    We need today’s kids to be nose-to-the-grindstone, tireless workers; what with all the debt and other b.s. they’ll be on the hook for. I think on some level, they know this, and it’s past daunting — it’s downright crippling to contemplate.

    • Thanks, le_soleil. What about chores? Things your kids are held responsible for doing? How do the repercussions for *not doing* compare to the same during your childhood.

  2. My Ma for all her faults and craziness, did bring us up to be very competent domestically. It was partly because she was lazy, but also because she got married having barely even made a cup of tea, and from living in a house with plenty of staff, she went to having none at all.

    We had to work for our pocket money too (not that we always got it, even then! or I didn’t anyway). We were expected to help with everything, from cleaning the silver and ironing, to dog minding and walking, from a very young age. I was glad of it later

    I went to a girls’ Grammar School (you had to pass a pretty tough exam to get there) and we were PUSHED academically, very hard. Standards were high, and we were very competitive. I’ve always been glad of that too, and appreciated it at the time

  3. BP, you can’t flunk here. An “F” or 30% on a test is graded “BU” which stands for “Beginning Understanding” and you are still promoted to the next grade.

  4. Hmm, something that is related to this thought, though it may not see so, is my belief that schools as we know them give too many reward for getting things right, and do not sufficiently explore the consequences, both good and bad, of getting things wrong. Some of the best things that happen in a person’s life or in the scientific field are due to getting things wrong, something which most kids and students today aren’t ever taught is okay.

  5. I don’t have children, but this echoes something I’ve thought about my life.

    I was a neglected kid. It wasn’t all bad — I got the basics provided — but I was expected to sit in my room, make no noise, and basically never disturb the adults. Walking upstairs to get a glass of water occasioned glares and heavy-hearted sighs at my bold intrusion.
    Needless to say, conversation with my parents was out of the question. In fact, most of the “conversations” that I remember involved one of my parents ranting about how much their life sucked and how ungrateful I was, or what I fuck-up I was for getting something “wrong.”

    The only place I was expected to excel was at school. To quote my parents, “You’re a kid. Your job is school, so you need to do well there.” I have a fairly high IQ, though, so I could easily exceed expectations by only putting in maybe a quarter of the work that other kids need to to get the same grade.

    As a result, I have no ambition. Not really, anyway. There are things that I want, but I don’t really know how to work, to apply myself, to make those things happen. I’m used to getting payouts that vastly exceed my expenditures in time and effort.

    I think it makes me a weaker person, to be quite honest, and I wish I knew how to overcome this. I’ve asked a lot of people this question: How does one learn ambition as an adult??

    No one’s been able to give me a decent answer so far. :/

  6. My Mom (Sag/Cap/Leo Moon) raised me with a good deal of do-it-yourself, go-look-it-up, and don’t-ask-me. I have 10H Pluto, Mars conj MC, and a few other placements that indicate I’m not the easiest student! I have to thank my mother for recognizing this and encourage in me a spirit for independent learning.

    I still have this dig-dig-find-it-for-yourself mentality. I’ve taught myself software and devoured educational material all my life so that I can stay ahead of trends that are in demand in the job market. Maybe this is somehow in my chart, (Gem 6H?) I’ve never attain a formal degree (Jup 12H? taken lots of classes though) but I get paid more than some of my co-workers who have a BS or an MBA, because I have the skills to do the job, and a portfolio/work history to prove it.

    I’m not of the crowd who believes you don’t need an expensive education from the “right” school, I’ve seen it come in handy! I fully intend to complete a degree in er… (Libra 10H can’t decide, not to mention that Gemini placement). However, reality is, one can come out of school knowing nothing!

    I recently became a mother, my son and I both Leo Moons. When I take a look at the school systems in my area, I know how important it is going to be for me to instill the same in him. Know what you need and know how to get it… on your own, and for yourself.

    Don’t expect the system to educate you, it’s designed to keep you ignorant, and keep power in the hands of the few and the chosen. Break the mold and get yours!

  7. When I was in school they actually use to *leave you back* if you failed. Kids did whatever to keep from having that stigma hanging over them.

  8. Venus in Cap/6th house trine Virgo Mars/3rd.

    I know I’m lazy and apathetic. I won’t apologize for it because I don’t feel I did anything wrong. Doesn’t make it right, though. Perhaps I could change, but I probably won’t because I resent that I would have to change/conform myself to live up to someones expectations.

    Dad worked 60+ hours a week most of my childhood until a couple years ago, and until I was 12 or so, mom was a stay-at-home wreck. She didn’t have friends or hobbies from what I can tell. If she wasn’t running errands to help my dad at his job, she was trying to sleep her life/problems away. She wasn’t much of a housewife either. Cooking, cleaning etc was not her forte.

    I had minimal chores like loading/unloading the dishwasher and besides getting nagged at, really nothing would happen if I didn’t do it. And I’m one of those people that I’ll do it when I’m goddamn good and ready to do it and the more you complain the longer I’ll put it off because, hey, fuck you! If you want it done that bad, do it your own damn self.

    I was lazy in school too.

    When I was in 3rd grade I had to write a report. It probably only had to be about 3-5 pages, and it could probably have been about anything I wanted to do a report about. Well, I’d just gotten these thick-ass 600+ page books about Queen Elizabeth I at the used book sale, cuz they had some cool pictures and I thought, hey, I’d write my report about her.

    I tried to read one of those big books, but I wasn’t at that kind of reading level. I barely read at all, in fact. Perhaps it was suggested to me that I should take on a subject that was a little easier, or some reading material more suited to my age? I don’t recall.

    And I have to write about it? How do you write a report? I had no clue, and I’m not inclined to ask for help, especially if I’m unaware that I need it.

    I don’t know how exactly it all happened, but my mom started reading those books. She loves reading English murder mysteries and I don’t know if she was already into the royal family or not, but over the years she had read several books about Anne Boleyn, Queen Elizabeth I and the Tudors in general.

    Anyway, she ended up writing the report for me. And I handed it in. At the time, I really didn’t realize that it was wrong. Except when the teacher asked me if I wrote it all by myself, I lied and said I had. If I said I hadn’t, what would have happened to me? I think I would have gotten into a bunch of shit and made my mom look bad in the process. I probably would have been held back a year as well.

    Well fuck. I was in 3rd grade, WTF was I supposed to do? I never asked anyone to do anything for me, so I don’t know why I should have to feel bad about it. If she’d just let me fail… maybe I would have learned something? Probably not. I would have just been held back and had that chip on my shoulder. Getting teased about being fat is bad enough, but add stupid into the mix…

    I almost never did math homework in 4th grade because I sucked at math and volunteered to work in the cafeteria because I got out of math class.
    In 5th grade I had a decent teacher that actually TRIED TO HELP ME. Multiplication and division were very hard for me at the time. The teacher told my parents that I was hitting myself because I didn’t know the answer.

    It wasn’t until I was 14 that I was diagnosed with ADD, but it didn’t change anything. In high school I got good grades in the classes I actually showed up to and despite my obvious attendance issues, teachers still said on my report card that I was “a pleasure to have in class”.

    I spent most of my time in the publications room (I was on the school paper) doing whatever I wanted. Usually reading an astrology book. Once I was called into the Vice Principals office and he threatened to expell me. I should have called him on it just to see what he’d do. Worst case scenario, I get expelled and I get my GED.

    I ended up staying on for a 5th year, SuperSenior, but I started feeling very lethargic every day and would just say “screw this, I’m tired, I’m going home” and leave w/in a couple hours. Well, I thought I had mono, but it turned out I had fatty liver disease. I was not imagining my illness, so therefore, the Vice Principal and anyone else who wanted to give me shit could suck it.

    Anyway, I’m not sure what my point is here?

    No one really told me what they expected of me. Mom and Dad might say “do your best”. Well, my best what? My best imitation of giving a shit? I’ve just see people work hard all their lives and they just get shit on for it, so what’s the point?

    Also, I never wanted anything bad enough to really work for it. And it seems to me that the things/people/relationships I’d be willing to put in the work for aren’t the kinds of things that respond to “look how hard I’ve worked!”

    I’m becoming a little disgusted with my life though. I’m looking to make the changes and get serious, but it just looks like a lot of shitty work for the rest of my life and little reward.

    I understand delayed gratification, but frankly what’s the point if you can’t even see the reward from a distance?

  9. My shitty attitude probably has a lot to do with my Moon/Aries/10th in tight oppostion to Pluto/Libra/4th, btw

  10. Valerie Pla Me. No I don’t think so, Pla Me you might be lazy but your not stupid.

    You might be to lazy to interpret but I’m too lazy to explain.

    Just a sayin~welcome to the bar

  11. I know someone who does therapy with little kids and the vast majority don’t know how to sit still for 2 minutes.

    No one has taught them.

    She’s really good with kids so has some methods that work fast to get them on the ball but it cuts into the therapy time that the insurance co’s are paying for.

    “$500 Million Obama Admin. Program Will Help Kids ‘Sit Still’ in Kindergarten”

    All I know is we’re screwed.

  12. Is Saturn really backbone? I’m reminded of a line from a song: ‘Work yer fingers to the bone, What do you get, bony fingers.’
    I was born to please (aka serve) and if I were to regale you with my ‘work’ since I was a 14-month-old in turtleneck and pleated skirt overseeing the life of my newborn sibling, you would agree I have been well occupied. Be all that as it may, I was taught that one strives to achieve (a) for its own sake (eros) and (b) for one own’s sake; of course, this puts paid to competition wih anyone but one’s self.
    It seems to me that there was much wisdom in the adjective ‘spoiled’ when applied to children:
    We have no greater responsibility than the legacy we leave them.

  13. Saturn is structure. I have written about the backbone somewhere. It used to be very frowned about not to have one. To be spineless was to be despised.

    Agree or not, I am just telling you this is how it was 30 or 40 years ago.

    The inability to stand on your own two feet… that was another thing you would hear. There was an expectation people stand on their own two feet, stand up for themselves etc. This was to avoid being seen as a failure which now, no one seems to mind. If they fail, it is another person’s (or thing;s) fault, see? And we teach our kids this. Well, I don’t but I am a hard-ass.

  14. Oh yes, ‘Stand on your own two feet’ – I remember it well.
    But the backbone thang continues to stymie me: do I have backbone when I say MEMEMEMEME or do I have backbone (psycho-morally – to coin a word) when I play the Christ and try and suck up the sh*t I may be projecting on others? Ugh.
    As for kids, or anybody really, no one learns a damn thang by succeeding.

  15. hahaha that pic is right on, especially the site it came off of if the test answers are as real as they claim to be.

  16. dystopian satire, saturn and backbone

    Backbone… as a matter of fact, I have a crooked spine. Kyphosis, diagnosed when I was 16 the doctor said I stopped growing. I’m 4’11 1/2. The 1/2 is very important.

    I’ve got Virgo Saturn 25*, on my IC.

    I have irrational abandonment issues that bleed into my romantic relationships.

    I say Christmas with us is like Festivus, but only Airing of Grievances and no Feats of Strength.

    Dad’s side of the fam has a tendency to horde things and my dad is like that and so am I. We are messy and I was always discouraged from having friends over by my mom because we will be judged badly.

    Mom is passive/agressive when you ask her what she wants she’ll say she doesn’t care but then she’ll complain about whatever you pick.

  17. Yes, Elsa, to answer your question (albeit belatedly !) my kids had/have chores — thanks for asking ! They were also raised around horses, which carries its own gravitas — that’s life or death, on so many levels. They remark to me with amazement, the kind of things their peers get, or get away with; and they’re completely convinced that those kids were brought up without consequences. There is however, an awareness on their part of just how bad things are and will continue to be here, economically; and I’m seeing difficulty for them with getting motivated toward independence. That, and losing their dad in their teen years has been a strain on their development. All I can do is continue to find the energy to stay on them; while I work to lead by example. It’s exhausting and all-consuming, but how they approach their adulthood is largely up to me; to provide consistent leadership. I truly have time for little else, but I know this is finite; I just hope that they get it. I don’t need to be praised or appreciated, I just need to witness their positive unfoldment and successes.

  18. Maybe I’ll be fighting a losing battle, but I’m going to try 100% to make sure my baby doesn’t end up like some of the kids I see today. Chores, responsibility, everything. :\

  19. Somewhere in the last few months a person in my circle who is in her 60’s was complaining to me about her niece. Her niece is 15 or so (give or take as I don’t remember exactly). She was visiting family and was around that niece for a whole week.

    Let’s just say she, and by way of story, I, am shocked. She said the niece would gesture across the table and say “is that my juice” and the people around her (father, sisters, etc.) would just get up and get it for her. Everything was just gestured at or mentioned that she might want it and then it was gotten for her.

    Mind you, in no way shape or form is this girl disabled or anything but young and healthy. The older woman relating the story was in shock at the manipulation and expectations being played out.

    ValeriePlame sounds a lot like a number of ADD/ADHD typical statements. (Yes, I said typical, think about that.) I highly highly recommend counseling as the chances of a healthy relationship for someone with ADD without counseling are close to 0%. Trust me, I’ve read the numbers and done the research as I am in a relationship with one myself. It takes work, lots of it, on both partners part. MORE work than any other relationship I’ve ever known. It can be done, it’s not a lost cause, it just requires effort, work, patience and yes, a really good counselor.

    As for me. I have a work ethic respected amongst old-timer farmers and they know that “kids” these days don’t know how to work. But then I have saturn mashed up in a t-square with the rest of my chart and gain immense satisfaction from “a job well done” πŸ˜€ Both my parents worked more than just about anyone else I know (and people have the gall to call them lazy hippies – har, little do they know).

  20. I am worried about how so many people in their teens and twenties parrot fox news, but without passion. They believe it is uncool to get worked up over anything. Meanwhile labor, privacy, civil rights get wittled away. Income inequity grows. Its uncool to side with the older people at work trying to improve things. Its uncool to raise your voice or to protest..make a change.

  21. My ex-husband and I both worked.Even though I had three kids and was a stay home mom I always babysat or cleaned houses or did something part time. I grew up in a large family where everyone had to pitch in so I expected the same of my kids. They all had chores and an allowance and had to clean their rooms etc.I tried to make it fun and to show we all pitch in together etc.

    We were fairly alternative…. vegie whole foods part of a wholistic community (a nice one) didn’t have a tv till they were older and I said I would not buy them stuff they wanted because they saw it advertised on TV.We never had a lot of money… they often had second hand clothes etc( I still do I love second hand shopping) .

    We got divorced and then after being in a car accident I was ill sand their dad worked hard but never made a lot of money so my kids had to get jobs and put themselves through college,

    They are all fairly driven to have money cause we never did…they never got a free ride (tho they were loved). Which they did resent sometimes because their friends had so much… but when I look at them now I think maybe it was a good thing. They are mature, hard working, focused, loving, kind and generally good people. I think that is because we treated them with respect and expected it back. WE also spent a lot of time with them, did stuff together etc. Even after the divorce we had birthdays christmas’s etc together.

    We weren’t perfect…far from it…I am sure they would let you know our many faults….and they had to go through our divorce my illness etc. We are both as neurotic as the next person. But somehow by some grace they seem to be ok. We support them emotionally, we accept them for who they are and we believe in them.

    I do agree 100% many kids these days are so spoiled… too many gadgets too much time in front of flickering screens too much junk food too little discipline etc.

    Maybe the future wont be so cozy and affluent and maybe they will have to wake up and smell the coffee… Maybe.

  22. I also think I’ve mentioned about a million times how bat shit crazy I’ve gone since Pluto crossed over my Venus, exact last summer.

    I don’t think ADD makes someone bad at relationships. I think being an asshole makes someone bad at relationships.

    What I’m mad about in regards to my diagnosis is that they totally ignored my underlying depression. I mean, you call yourselves professionals?! You suck! They gave me dexedrine, which some of you might be familiar with. I knew Jack Kerouac and Allen Ginsberg used to get high on dexies and stay up all night talking πŸ˜‰ That stuff would make me paranoid and coming down would really make me wanna yell and throw shit.

    And yes, I guess in some ways I was spoiled? Ok, so when I was 16 or so they said they’d buy me a car if I maintained a very non-vigorous C average. For the year. I don’t even know why we were talking about it. I had no interest in owning/driving/maintaining a vehicle. No thank you, I have my $30 month bus pass that you pay for. Now I think they were just trying to trick me into getting a job?!

    I failed the permit test when I was 15 and I didn’t take it again for a few years and failed it that time too. I took it again in my mid 20s and passed, but then no one’s car was shitty enough for me to learn on anymore. I’ve only been out of the parking lot once and it was some scary shit up a steep hill and my mom didn’t tell me to downshift when you go up a hill or anything. She just says “clutch” and I push the clutch in and she’s supposed to shift. She freaked out and I was able to pull over at a church and she yelled at me and I never drove again. Except for go carts. I like go carts a lot.

    So, I guess it makes me sound ungrateful that I was not interested in their offer? You can’t bribe someone with things they don’t want. I never equated a car with freedom or independence. I just like riding around and listening to the radio. Ever since I was a baby. I don’t really want to drive one.

    Bus pass is almost $90/month but its cheaper than anything to do with a car.

    I sound like a shit, but I stayed out of trouble for the most part. I wasn’t partying and getting drunk. Didn’t steal or get into fights. I smoked a little weed, did acid a few times, smoked some cigarettes and that was pretty much it. I wasn’t having sex because I was fat and ugly and guys never hesitated to remind me of it.

    I skipped a lot of school and hung out at the bookstore trying to learn astrology. It’s one of the few things I’m really passionate about and even that’s not enough some days cuz I ask myself, what if it really all is woo woo bullshit that just doesn’t fucking matter and all belief is bullshit mass hallucination because we don’t want to admit we’re really all alone.

    You know, that kind of stuff. But I never really talked about it to anyone.

  23. What’s funny is the kids born in the late 80s and early 90s have a ton of Capricorn in their chart!!

    Uranus and Neptune was in Capricorn in the 80s and 90s!

  24. “There was an expectation people stand on their own two feet, stand up for themselves etc. This was to avoid being seen as a failure which now, no one seems to mind.”

    I was raised with this expectation. Not that anyone put on it on me, really, but that’s what I wanted for myself.
    As far as standing up for myself, I’m good at that. I have strong, healthy boundaries and I’m not afraid to say, “Hey — here’s the line. You just crossed it.”

    I’m not so good at the standing on my own feet part, though.
    Mentally/emotionally I am my own island. Firm on my own feet in that regard.
    Financially? Not so much. I’ve never worked a job where I didn’t have to be concerned with money, where there would be enough for the necessities (food, rent, utilities, etc; true needs, not wants). And this is where I feel like I’ve failed both myself and society in general. Because that’s a mark of an ADULT, right? The ability to provide for one’s self and dependants without handouts?

    Yeah…

  25. Adding:
    I think I have this bass-ackwards. *smiles* You’re supposed to have a support network for your emotional needs and be on your own financially.

    Whoops!

    I’m workin’ on it, though. Slowly but steadily, I’m workin’ on it.

  26. I came here to say..”You are playing my song” I’m a horrible parent because I do discipline my children. They do have chores. They do have expectations. They do have to show initiative. They are not rewarded for simply eating and breathing.

    I expect my kids to maintain a B average if they are going to play sports. The school doesn’t enforce this. I expect my kids to do their chores and homework before turning on the TV. I expect my kids to be respectful of their elders even if they don’t agree with what they are saying If the problem is huge with another adult, they are not to start slinging curse words or acting out, they are to come to me and I’ll investigate..keep your cool until then, remove yourself from the situation if possible, if not, keep your mouth shut.

    As for me growing up, I did lots of things that if I had been my own parent I probably would have never been allowed to leave my room—at the time that was a bad thing.

    My sons are older now. They can leave my house at this minute and know how to cook, clean, do their own laundry. They know how to fill out job applications. They know there are bills that have to be paid before they have “extra money.” They know it is important to be on time. Whether they employ these lessons or not is up to them. But, they also have the knowledge that Mom aint’ gonna bail them out. Now..they do have Grandma, who cleans up every mess they have ever made. But, I’m hoping they have also developed enough initiative to not be barnacles on her checkbook forever.

    Again, I’m the worst mother in the world. Ask my kid’s friends who aren’t allowed to show up unannounced or be here laying on the couch eating our food while I’m at work. I’m horrible because I don’t give my kid gas money to drive their friends wherever they need to go. I tell them, you give someone a ride all the time, they need to pitch in with gas money. If not, it’s a small town, they can walk. Or their parents can take them.

    There are many reasons why I’m the worst mom in the world, but these are a few.

    I didn’t have chores as a child. I was 19 years old with a child living at my father’s house trying to figure out how to wash clothes. I didn’t know what to do to fill out a job application. I learned how to iron clothes at 26 when I was working as a home health aid and a 88 year old woman taught me. I was never allowed to cook or help in the kitchen. I didn’t know how to work the stove. Figured that out and taught myself how to make some basic stuff in my early twenties and then have building on it ever since. I don’t know how to manage my money. I’m trying. Making a little headway.

    I don’t want my kids to leave my home and NOT know these things. I just don’t. And, they won’t. My dad disciplined me when my Mom filled him in on what was going on or he accidently found out on his own (usually that was how it went). And that little bit of discipline is what nudged me along for a few things. We do our children a horrible disservice as parents if we do not feed them reality. I think.

  27. That’s old school thinking and things are different now. We need to learn to be human beings instead of human doings all the time. To work smart, instead of hard. Nothing wrong with working hard once in a while, but figuring out how to get what you want without such struggle is smarter. Its more about the Law of Attraction nowadays and about one’s belief system. Learning to be compassionate, kind and caring is the most important thing i think. So, a husband who gives a little and expects a lot isn’t really caring about his wife at all. Narcissism is a totally different thing than that though…if one falls for a narcissist then they have their own issues to deal with!. Structure and learning are important of course, but we need to stop stressing the struggle part of everything. As they say in EFT, I choose to allow this to be easy.

  28. I am 1 of 8 in the family I grew up in. We had to cook and clean for the whole house. Chores were done before we did anything with our friends on Saturday mornings! I had my first job and started buying my own school clothes at the age of 13. Paid for my own drivers license and car at the age of 16. I was always the first to do these kind of things out of all of my step-siblings I grew up with.

    Do I teach my kids the same values? Hell yes! I require my kids to do dishes, clean the house, keep at least a B average or better at school. I will pay for there driver license schooling, but they have to take it from there, and have to work and buy their own first car.

    At graduation of high school, I either buy them a car,($500 value only) or give them the money to figure it out with the knowledge I instilled into them. By the time the get to graduation point from High school, they know what a check book is, they know how to work a job, they know how to live with in a budget, and how to be self sufficeint, and cook, clean, and go grocery shopping and how to do laundrey, and mind their manners!

    O’ and if anyone of my kids demand anything, they get nothing! I treat as often as I can, but I don’t spoil. If I get a continuse “will you get me this, or that?” I do not hesitate to let them know “I gave you 2 good legs, get up and use them!” I would rather be “old school.” then non-effective.

  29. I hear crazy things of entitlement. Here and outside of here. I am thankful that I didn’t have much but good parents growing up. It meant I had to figure out how to use my energy to improve my life and get along with people. It’s the absolute opposite of everything you communicate Valerieplame. But even if i didn’t have good parents i’d still be me. Stuck with myself and responsible for my own happiness. That’s what it comes down to. saturn creates happiness over time as it wards off depression. This is basic 101.

  30. Curiosity as this topic rolled around in my head last night. Is there a likelihood that we’ll be reaping the rewards of parenting collapse along with the other structural collapses along with pluto capricorn or are some people who have strong structure and have strong work ethics etc. going to be giving up in hopelessness that they can help anymore?

    I don’t know if I’m parsing this right. Elsa?

  31. mud, I don’t understand your question. I am going to live in accord with my standards and principles regardless of what others do.

  32. SaDiablo– are you a Cap sun?

    I was thinking as I read this thread that for me, the “childhood deprivation” of Capricorn played out as a lack of parenting. Not money, but real guidance, especially in terms of a father figure.

    The effects have extended into my adulthood and I am grateful now (!) for the four Pluto transits to my sun-stellium which have caused me to look for the reasons and then begin to plot a course for my own life, parenting myself. But let me tell you, without a good strong decent Saturn father figure to learn from (in family and society), both boys and girls end up screwed.

    So when Conoco pointed out that the kids of the 80’s and 90’s have Uranus/Neptune in Cap, methinks their lives will be erratic (Uranus) due to lack of structure (Cap), and it may be the undoing (Neptune) of society (Cap).

    (Libra in me says: to be fair, society had/has some things that need undone.)

    You can give give give as a parent but if you don’t give the right things it won’t ever be enough.

  33. My mom’s dad died when she was 3, so she got SSI checks until she was 19, but she had 3 younger step-sibs and her mom used to give her heavy guilt trips about the $$ saying stuff like “if you don’t give me that $$ your brothers and sister won’t get to have new clothes for school this year” or “we won’t get to eat” and crap like that.

    Instead of being able to save for a car or college, she had to feed and clothe her family and probably paying for booze and smokes for whorey grandma and the child molester.

    So I understand where she comes from about $$. Now she says she doesn’t want to have to think about money except to enjoy it. Which she can’t anymore because they’re gonna go poor.

    My bfs mom OTOH, has backbone. Seriously, I think she’s secretly made out of titanium. She had a pretty bad childhood as well, it sounds like. Her father died when she was young and was left with an abusive stepmother. I swear I heard that she was made to dress up as a baby and sit in a high chair in front of the window…. like well past the age to be doing that.

    I think she ended up living with an older couple that gave her a safe place to stay.

    In the early 70’s she got pregnant and married a man who turned out to be abusive and pretty mentally ill. She was able to leave him and get a divorce. He ended up in an institution and had a lobotomy. He’s dead now.

    She remarried to my bf’s dad. They started their own business together, which closed a couple years ago because she had to file bankruptcy and sell the house and most of their possessions.

    I met his parents a few times when we were in high school. Apparently his dad was an alcoholic and occasional cheater, but I don’t know if he was physically abusive.

    He had a brain aneurysm about 5-6 years ago and my bf says the doctors should have just let him go. He spent the rest of his life at a convalescent home and my bf said they had to stop visiting him because his short term memory was shot and kept thinking he was back in ‘Nam etc.

    His mom got legally divorced after the aneurysm and her husband became a ward of the state. I guess she did what she had to do, in that situation. But I think that goes against “In sickness and in health”. But whatever, the guy was kind of a dick.

    She lost a lot of weight and started doing marathons and going to pilates. She’s living with her bf in a tiny house in the burbs. She has a job she doesn’t like but does well at because its the same stuff she was doing when they had their own business. She’s in school full time working toward a degree of some sort. She’s 63 and renegotiating life.

    I’m impressed and frightened and resentful of it.

    I’m pretty sure she thinks I’m lazy and I’m going to ruin her son’s life or something, but as long as we’re not living together and he hasn’t put any babies in me, it’s not really any of her concern or problem. It takes two anyway, and he’s happy living in the bachelor pad and playing video games.

    His dad died a few months ago and I felt bad because I had to read about it in the paper. I was quite ill that week and my bf called me “just because” and I was cranky with him and told him to leave me alone. I didn’t know he called to talk about his dad, because he doesn’t really talk about it and I feel bad asking about it. And he’d told me about a month before that his dad had been transferred to the hospital and that his time was running out and I asked him how he was dealing with it. He said he figured his dad died years ago and the man that’s dying now is just his body.

  34. You know what’s funny? My dad recently jumped on the ADD/ADHD bandwagon, says he has it! I asked him if he’s sure he’s not just a lazy fuck up.

  35. I apologize. Somedays that 12th house mercury just floats away into the nether and I can’t get words out no matter how I try.

    I am wondering if you see this as the time when we begin to reap what we’ve sown

    or if it’s going to also bring a change in those who HAVE been working very very hard and see it all go nowhere? Will there be a chunk, not all, but a chunk of those who have worked and worked just check out because they’re watching what they’ve spent years building crumble?

    or maybe both. Do I make any sense? (I have to ask this of my husband too and he “gets” me better than most so apologies if I don’t make sense again… :D)

  36. SaDiablo– that’s interesting. I wonder if strong Saturn contacts give the same effect I’m thinking of. Usually when you think “textbook Capricorn” you think hard childhood– pounding rocks and all that. But I’m finding that simple neglect of a child’s emotional development can be just as poisonous to a person’s life. You walk around looking normal on the outside, and sure, your life looks that way, but you are missing some essential components. Plus you have all the negativity of the soundtrack they put in your head. I’ve had that too. Pluto in Cap transit to my Sun has purged a lot of it for me. *gratitude*

    My advice coming from my own experience is to assess what you’re lacking, find out what you need, and then give it to yourself. It’s never too late to parent yourself. I have spent a lot of my time in the past year or so preparing myself to become a whole person and to take on life on my own terms, not as someone else’s puppet. It feels right. And being responsible doesn’t equal blaming yourself for what you lack; it just means getting done what you need to. πŸ™‚

  37. Thanks, Shaina. πŸ™‚

    I feel like I’m in the process of doing that now. Transiting Saturn is set to conjunct my natal Pluto for the third pass any day now (direct, retro, direct) and I think I’m starting to see the payoff in the distance.

    My chart’s not really set up for a stable home life. I have moon-Pluto repeated three times and two moon-Uranus contacts, so I think childhood, family, home, and roots are always going to be somewhat of a struggle for me. And, really, I’m okay with that. *smiles* I’m at peace with my past and hopeful that, even if it’s hard, I can work with what I have in the future.

    I’m not so much interested in “how things worked back then” as I am in “how things will work now.” I want to grow as a person, not blame current problems on past problems. I think your advice will help with that! πŸ™‚

    Interesting tangent:
    Back when Pluto was in Sag, I gave myself permission to have a childhood. I wonder, now that Pluto’s in Cap, am I giving myself the permission to be an adult??

    I’m taking this one to the boards. πŸ˜‰

  38. Isn’t a parent’s job to teach their child self sufficiency and independence? I have plenty of complaints about public educuation, including that nonsensical Leave No Child Behind program. But bottom line, I am responsible for teaching my children the importance of doing a job well. The payoff is all three of my children are working through this recession. All three are saving and paying their way through college.

  39. I’m a slightly older college student at almost 27. Took a 5 year hiatus to work/figure myself out. I find that people like Val are more and more the norm and I wonder what the hell these kids (2-8 years younger than me) are gunna do when they need to take care of themselves… But that time never comes it seems. I feel the school system (even college now) and employers are bending over backwards to support these types. It is really weird. Basically I don’t see anyone falling through the cracks, even though they can be lazy, uninspired, angry, apathetic, let others do their dirty work. Have noticed a bunch of phenomenal 16/17 year olds in college all the sudden with maturity and work ethic that puts most of the 20-somethings to shame.

  40. Hey now… Just because I admit to being a fuck up doesn’t mean I’m just like all the other fuck ups out there. I’m *special* in my fucked-up’dness and I would appreciate it if you respected that.

  41. Re: learning ambition as an adult? For me being broke, homeless and unemployed once, years ago, gave me great impetus and ambition to lift myself out of it. Ambition for me is not just to dream of being/doing something, but the dogged striving of putting one foot after the other slowly but surely and steadfastly over a period of years, It is a long term stick-to-it-ness.
    As a child I wasn’t taught to do chores, it was a rude awakening when I left home, but I was quick learner. My son (16) can do most things for himself and the household. He also sees extra housework as a way to earn money, which is fine with me. He is one of the Neptune and Uranus in Capricorn generation, he sees some government rules, laws and policies as crazy.It is hard not to agree.
    Pluto in Capricorn shows me about maintaining integrity. Any dodgy short-cuts cunderhand or shady deals however small, will bring people undone.

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