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Libra & Manners For Good Or Ill

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 Elsa
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I think it's bad manners to not take no for an answer. I am referencing this thread:

https://www.elsaelsa.com/forum/relationships/tell-me-tell-me-tell-me/

But manners have become very complicated in my world. I have Libra and I care about manners. I was raised without them but I have tried to acquire them all my life.

I wouldn't know this if, satori, had not pointed it out to me one day.  But she was right back then - I was raised in a barn, as they say, but I have tried really hard to be decent.

With Jupiter strong, I tend to go native fast, as I like to say. I'm mutable so I can do this pretty easily but I also have Capricorn so there are limits or lines I am not going to cross no matter what the group is doing.

Anyway, I live in the south now and people here do tend to have manners.  Really, it's night and day from Colorado which is actually a pretty cold place.

Having good manners is something that is respected around here. If you can't manage this, you should at least be nice. If you can't manage that, the people with good manners will let it go because that's what a socially graceful person can and will do.

Now I don't think that bad manners is a age-related thing. I do think there are regional differences.  So here's an example of the the total confusion... for Libra, which is largely a people-pleasing sign.

If you don't address people, sir or ma'am, here, people notice.  They just know you weren't raised around here, basically. They also know you're not interested in adapting to fit in, which is your (God given) right. Personally, I adapted.

It was not easy. I have never worked anywhere or lived anywhere where this was normal. I felt a bit stupid at first but at this point... like seven or eight years later, I do use these terms, frequently.  But what if I call, Colorado?

It's possible to call someone ma'am or sir and have them get super pissed.  Not the gender thing... this comes in front of that.  They just really don't like it.

Now I know some people around here don't care if you don't like it. They are going to do like their mama taught them... which frankly, I respect.  But there's an obvious rudeness to that as well.  See the problem?

There is another insane thing, called "please and thank you". Some people use these words and would never think of not using them.  In some populations, they seem to have been omitted.

Example, someone pays me... I respond, "Thank you." I do this to express my gratitude but also to let them know I got the payment... it arrives.

Now this may be age-related, I think some people feel this is an unnecessary step.  Like they know you got it because they sent it and now you are cluttering their inbox?  I'm not sure.

But I am sure of this: given a choice, I prefer people with good manners and I flat out admire people with GREAT manners. I am surrounded by people like this which is sweet, I'm telling you.

I am writing this today because I went to town and it's kind of grim. Prices are high and people are stressed. You can see the fraying in some cases but I see other people - some known to be very polite - who are going overboard trying to be particularly kind and helpful and cheerful. I'm talking about people who work in the grocery store, for example. It's really sweet to see. It's moving. It fills me with gratitude and inspires me to continue to try to improve my manners... a life-long challenge in my case.

So you compare this to the person in the other thread, badgering the hell out of me... well you see why I prefer this.

What do you prefer? Do you ever see things like this?  Do you consider yourself to be polite? Rude? It doesn't matter?

I'm really curious. 

Thanks.

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 Elsa
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I wanted to add something...

The people who are being extra nice; I want to share my impression of that. I feel they feel that people are down and one thing you don't do is kick a person when they're down. Right now, people are down, so don't kick them?

I think this is one of the more ghastly things you can do but it's something else I see large swaths of people ignore.

I also want to note why I posted this outside of just enjoying discourse and different points of view. I am writing this for anyone out there like me... meaning you were raised badly and you know it. We don't exactly have "Emily Post" anymore or "Miss Manners", both sources I exhausted when I was a teenager or in my early 20's. This mattered to me, see?

So if it matters to you and you know you need help, maybe something someone says here will help you acquire new skills or a better understanding.

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NotMyCircus
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I struggle with manners but I’m slowly learning. Libra North Node. 

With that said, what do y’all think about what this guy said?

 

https://vm.tiktok.com/TTPdBth536/

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 Elsa
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@notmycircus I don't know if he's right. I've heard this said a number of times but I haven't really seen this kind of two- facedness. Not since I've lived here and not with Southerners I've met in Arizona or Colorado. It's a large sample over the course of my lifetime.

I think this may just another nasty thing to say about people from the South but I can't say for sure because I'm an outsider.

I think they might choose their words but the reason for that is good manners.

 

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(@warped)
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@notmycircus 

What he said is true of Northerners also, as are carefully chosen words.  I find it's really a more individual matter of age, upbringing, and social environment imparting a veneer of gentility.  I remember when I saw the play "The Dining Room" by A. R. Burney, thinking he'd based it on my relatives!  

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 Kim
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@notmycircus I chuckled about what he said, but I don't think he's right. I think northerners and southerners just have different ideas about what's socially acceptable. Southerners say, "Bless your heart!" and northerners mostly are oblivious to the fact that it can be a backhanded insult.

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Libra Noir
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I was raised by a foofoo lady who was raised by a foofoo lady from Texas. There was this complex criteria of do’s and don’ts that I don’t think I ever fully grasped but I tried. My mom showed distaste often for what she would call “tacky” behavior. That was like the worst thing you could do as her child was do something “tacky”. But there are lots of people that are very tacky in her opinion. People who I think are cool she calls tacky so who the f knows lol. That word is actually way too loaded with triggers for me lol, because there was actual shame attached. It didn’t really seem to be about respect for the other person (although it was on the outside) but presenting some kind of image. Maybe that’s what that guy was talking about? 

Im actually amazed at how much of her teaching I’ve actually integrated and passed on to my own son but for me it’s more about taking the other persons comfort level into account. I had a friend who called it “home training”- having basic manners. I liked that term. 

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CocoPeaches
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@libra-noir That's funny. I was raised by a foofoo lady but probably not Texes-level foofoo. ? My mom is from White Plains, New York. Her mom, my Italian-Irish grandmother grew up in Manhattan. My paternal grandmother was midwestern, and went to "finishing school" in Boston. All of these woman had or have perfect manners and have been excellent role models in so many ways. Both of my aunts, too. I am a bit of a savage myself, but I've been fortunate to pick up so much of it without even being conscious of it. I never read Emily Post, but my mom would reference it. (It can be read online for free - not sure if it's a revised version: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/14314/14314-h/14314-h.htm )

Perhaps other things were lacking, but manners have been shown to me, and I'm inclined to show them back as much as possible. To older people and young people alike. Something I struggle with is thank you notes. I was taught to always send a card in the mail after receiving gifts of any kind. My grandma would deduct from next year’s Christmas gift if I did not send a thank-you card! The problem with it being so bred into me, is that sometimes I like to rebel... I’ve got Venus-Uranus energy (11h Taurus sun, and Venus trine Uranus). Ever since my mom tried to make me wear a smock dress when I was 2, I have been stubborn about altering my behavior and my appearance to fit societal norms. These things have got to be on my own terms. I might not always have perfect manners, but at least I'm genuine?

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Libra Noir
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@cocopeaches Oh my grandma was big on the thank you notes too. I do my best but have missed a few over the years. I have texted a thank you for a card or small gift as sometimes a card seems too formal but acknowledgement is respectful. 

That reminds me that I went to a baby shower for a coworker back in September. We all pitched in for this really nice stroller/car seat combo. I still have not received so much as a text thank you and I’ve seen this gal at work. No home training I guess which is why it’s forgivable to me. How could she know if it was never told to her? That’s where my manners kick in- with people who don’t know. Being gracious is a big part of that to me and that’s the crux of it all for me. Graciousness and humility. Everything else is surface. 

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I love good manners. Even watching someone behaving rude, makes me feel uncomfortable.

I blame my Mars in Libra, and Mercury Sextile Venus for it.

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 Elsa
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@amuseme I also feel uncomfortable with it, at the very least. This is what has driven me to work so hard to learn and develop manners.

I'm basically a junkyard dog, taken in by life and/or strangers. I appreciate this kindness and try to learn because I sure wasn't taught at home.

 

 

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sophiab
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@Elsa It sounds like a Venus signature in operation. With strong Venus, either Libra or Taurus (and I suspect if there is an angular Venus), I think there is an inbuilt need to be Venusian. If Mercury has Venus qualities or contact to Venus by aspect, also hard to not imbue Venusian desire for harmony and pleasure in interaction. It's probably a sign of being a goddess, an earthly one! 

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 Elsa
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@sophiab I'm definitely no goddess of any type but I so think I have an innate yearning for decorum.

I think this could be compared to being born poor but wanting to be rich; except money is not my currency. Manners mean more to me than cash, basically.  

So imagine growing up (isolated in the desert, with no tv, etc.). I get to "town" when I'm 15 years old, having no earthly idea how to behave.

It's been a challenge ever since. I don't think it will ever not be a challenge though some days go smoothly.

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sophiab
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@elsa One approach is, decide on your own code of being and then apply it as consistently as possible with the proviso that what will be continuously challenging are the responses you receive from others and how you react to them. I have this sticky note which I made several months back. It says "How people respond is not your responsibility". I need to remind myself regularly!

When I go out I am very friendly to those I interact with, strangers, say in shops, etc. I will make eye contact and smile at passersby, but I noticed that I seem to do this based on energy.. it's like I can generally feel beforehand if that person is open to a brief exchange. If not I don't bother. I think when those positive exchanges occur it's mutually enlightening, and I keep in mind that in the current times it can really make my and other's day to make contact like this and not feel alone. 

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 Elsa
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@sophiab I agree with this approach but a lot of my interaction is online / professional and this is a puzzle for me.

Example, I have an older friend who always texts back, "You're welcome" to my, "Thank you". In my age group, this would not be necessary, but it's not bad.

So say a 25 year old buys a report. I send it and thank them for the purchase. They email back, "Thanks", some of the time. I don't consider this necessary... and it's not that common really. But what if they do?

Do I email back, "You're welcome"? "My pleasure?"

I am not sure if this is a little much or not much at all.

Having Libra, of course I can't decide.  I can easily see someone not buying from be because it results in what feels like 1100 emails.  It's a weird thing.

Now if you're born in 1939, I don't think you're going to mind a polite email. But truly, things have changed in 60 or 70 years. I understand your theory (of consistency) still holds but I am trying to come up with one!

On that note, if you search "consistent theory" on this blog, I'm pretty sure you'll come up with content. My husband used to drag on people for not having such a thing (he's taur with scor moon). I understand the value of it but its not so easy with Libra, mutability and Saturn Neptune ++++! Smile

I also expect this will seem like a lot of over-thinking to some but I really care about this - about nuance. Given a choice, I would rather please the customer by doing anything that doesn't go against my grain.  The authenticity of what I'm saying is shown in the consistency of this thread and my whole blog for that matter.

It not that easy to run a site like this, in a divided world with users that are 9-90 years old (or more) - who reside all over the world. I'm not defending myself. I just think it's interesting to consider.  I consider it daily for about 25 years and still think it's interesting. I'm pretty sensitive, all things considered.  I'd just rather do right than wrong and/or good not bad.  It's my nature, which happens to be against my nurture.

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sophiab
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@elsa The uncertainty you feel may be due to the conflict between your nature and how you were nurtured (or not, because you describe experiencing extreme abuse). The reason I wrote the sticky note to myself is to cope with the fact that I carry negativity about myself because of meeting weird responses my whole life which started with abusive parenting. The trauma element is important, because when being yourself there is a residue of shame, guilt and deep uncertainty. Yes, it leads to overthinking when sending emails, etc, but although uncomfortable, I think its a positive sign of the process of trying to overcome the legacy of abusive nurture. There is no way around it but to feel your way, make mistakes, and slowly work out what's comfortable for you, especially in these tricky back and forth interactions.

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 Elsa
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@sophiab interesting take.  It could be right. The astrology explains it... and as for "extreme abuse", I certainly didn't know I was extremely abused. I probably didn't really understand this until I was in my 40's. I just wanted to leave home and I did, when I was fifteen. That was about 7 years later than I'd have liked!

But I don't know if you know me; have read my book or what. But my father broke my arm (and failed to take me to the doctor / hospital, among many other things. I was six. I went to school (and elsewhere) and answered the obvious question, "How did you break your arm?" with the honest answer, "My daddy broke it."

No one cared.  This was not "abuse" as far as I knew or could tell, though the doctor who ultimately set me arm was a bit pissed. He told my mother to tell my father to keep his hands of me. I thought that was pretty cool at the time but maybe you can see, it doesn't really inform me that I am abused or more particularly, "extremely abused".  I was just living my life, trying to dodge my father and leave home as soon as possible.  This meant go to school, when I was four years old, but by the time I was eight, I wanted to leave, period. I was on a mission to gtfo, ever since he gave me a very bad day.

I guess what I am saying is you make logical sense in this day and age but my psychology and my intellect... everything is so unusual, I am not sure these things apply to me.

What is taught in books is pretty remote from my personal experience. They may be, as I keep repeating, because I grew up without a tv or really, education.

I don't know if you know, but I could read on a 7th grade level when I was five. They did not know what to do with me... I skipped a grade, starting 3rd grade when I was six. I went home the first weekend of school and did 1/2 my math book which was supposed to be for the year. I would have done it all, but I was saving it so I would have something to do the next weekend?

Anyway, they took me out of classes and had me work in the office, for half the school day. Literally, they put me to work, calling parents of truant kids when I was seven years old. I also read books aloud onto cassette tapes so slow readers could take then home and practice their reading.

It's just an unusual story. I was also my father's favorite. Go figure.

I don't feel "abused". I feel curious. I feel interested. I feel like being a good person and I feel like learning and giving as much as I can, every way I can.

This is not nearly enough for some reason and I admit this bothers me. But it's just another puzzle and thankfully, I like them and I'm also pretty good at them.

I don't know but I guess I feel you may be assigning me some kind of complex that is not valid. Maybe not. But it's what pretty much everyone who gets to me know me will do, eventually. I have 30+ year relationships with people, who have flat out told me they're pissed they can't figure out my deal
::waves at, Leon::
::waves at Scott::
::waves at others::

This is also explained by astrology. It's my 8th house. You think you fathom me but you don't. Not you, personally. Everyone.

People apply their experience or their education to analyze a unique situation - mine... I have a chart that is so simple, yet conceals almost everything. I can't tell you how many people have written me over the years to tell me my problems and dx.  I don't know what to say besides what I am saying here. Maybe, but probably not.

Like everyone else, I am a unique child of God. Spine twisted and many, many kicks to the head; some many other various sundries, I couldn't list the shit if I had the rest of my life to do it.

So basically, in this thread, I share some of my thoughts... and it gets me a Dx because I am from extreme abuse.

I don't know what to say about that. You are telling me about residue that resides in me and I'm looking at you like a hog looking at a wrist watch. Are you sure that's mine?  Could it be yours?

I don't know. I just know I'd rather be a good person than a bad one. I know a lot of bad people. I choose to go the other way, which I don't find to be easy.  But is it because of abuse? Or my own character or weaknesses?

I don't know.  

My father was not a good influence but my grandfather was extraordinary. It's another factor... and he was nearby, most of my childhood. If you haven't met him, search "Henry" on this blog. I don't think you'll regret it. Smile

I might take a "W" in order to have a "Henry". I mean, that's not a statement of fact, just one of my 100's of millions of ideas. Smile

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sophiab
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@elsa I'm sorry if you felt hemmed in by what I wrote. It was just some ideas I had about why you might feel doubt about how to respond to the email interactions you described and what you said about nature and nurture. I agree, whenever we speak to others, in some way we are speaking to ourselves. I understand what you mean by not seeing what happened to you as abuse because it wasn't a relevant description of life experience in those days, especially for children, so why apply it now. A person's life experience and how they reflect on it and deal with it is certainly a personal matter. I'm taking this on board!

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 Elsa
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@sophiab Thanks. You're very smart not stubborn. Rare qualities in my experience!  I appreciate you.

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sophiab
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@elsa Thanks Elsa, I appreciate you too. ❤️

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 Elsa
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@sophiab Thank you. I truly hope I did not run you off. If I did, I'm sorry. It was not intentional.

I do feel blindsided by this stuff though. I am talking about manners and I'm cast as some pathology, walking.

This is why I wrote a book by the way. Besides co-dependency, I mean. I wrote a book because someone wanted me to. It was not a goal of mine. But when it was proposed to me, I took it on and my personal, internal reason was this... which I have reported before.

At the time... about once every year or two there would be a kid who was beat to death by a parent; the father, usually. Invariably, someone would say to me - just remarking on the news; the kid was better off or probably better off.

I would be like, wtf!  Because I was beaten very badly but I would not be better off dead!  I did not like how abused children were viewed and the assumptions made about them.  I would argue every time this happened - sort of like now. Smile

Anyway, in my book, I am who I am. A girl with obvious brains, a lot of curiosity, a lot of luck - but I am in a giant mess of huge proportion. As bad as my book was, I only scratched the surface. This was because my editor told me if anything else happened to me, people would not be able to read it.

So anyway, I thought the book would illustrate that a child could be abused, even horribly abused and still have a lot to give, be happy, be a lot fun and such. I don't need to be dead, basically, in order to have it be better for me.  You see this didn't really work.

So I get beat and then I get out, with a number of miracles occurring and then can I just be alive? No. I have all these imaginary problems, not in my imagination but in the imagination of other people. Like the kid who gets beaten to death. People feel he/she needs that in order to not suffer.

I was not exactly suffering when I was 12. I had the day free, with my father at work. I loved school, I loved to dance and sing, I had a boyfriend who loved me... you get the idea.

So I do react and I will continue to react because I think this is wrong to do.  Discount a person who was raped or beaten or whatever, or assign them problems, with the extreme being, this person would be better off dead.

I thought it would be good to hear from an actual victim, basically. My editor thought this as well.

We actually added part 3 of my book to illustrate HOW I survived because he felt it was curious.  God made me resilient.  I was trying to get away. Beat me and the next day, I am still trying to get away. Stab me - same thing. Rape me, same thing.

I got away so why wouldn't I be happy? I am happy. I was happy when I was 15 years old and I stated this in plain language. My last beating! Nobody has laid a hand on me for DECADES, yet I still have all these problems. 

I don't but most people are going to read this and say, "Yes, she does." 

It's hopeless in a large percentage of the population.  I could list a million reasons why an abused kid might want to live and still it would be, "Nope.  Better of dead!"

So yes, it's defeating.  But I did not mean to hurt you or run you off by speaking up. 

It's a strange position I'm in.  If I don't speak up, it makes it seem as if what you wrote about me is real. And I'm sure you can see how this would bother me.  I don't address everything like this but sometimes I feel I must.

I just don't want to wear the "unlucky abused kid dunce cap", because it does not fit me. It also doesn't fit the broad majority of my peers that I've met over the course of my lifetime.

The unhealable wounded abused kid is  myth but it sure is persistent. A different person might take this on as "programming" but it's just not me.

I am sorry if I caused you pain. I hope you return. 

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sophiab
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@elsa It's true, I was hurt that you wrote a blog post soon after about someone telling you, you had a pathology, and linking this to gaslighting. This may or may not have been related, but I felt it was and it confused me. I suggested that when a person has conflictual relationships with their caregivers, it can lead to conflicts in the relationship to the self, a residue of which can be doubt or doubting one's actions. It's possible I use words like trauma and abuse too comfortably - I've been immersed in an environment for a very long time that accepts these as commonplace and there is no judgment linked to them. I need to remember that this isn't universal. From your response I started to question why I invest myself in people's lives and try to offer guidance. I'm still pondering that, which is why I haven't been posting. It's probably a good question for me to consider. I feel goodwill towards you as a person, and I keep in mind that everyone is going through a lot at the moment and is just trying to do their best. Thanks for reaching out so we could talk about it.

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 Elsa
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@sophiab the post was related but only as follow on as I was thinking about this and other things.

It's a challenge to create interesting content. I manage it by being the way I am, which is a self-contained person who thinks in various ways and directions, pretty quickly. 

As I recall, I wound up scanning videos after a comment,  perhaps on YouTube but I'm not sure.

At that point I had more insight into why this triggered me at the time. Not triggered as in upset. Just that I was inspired to write all that. Also, I was planning to write on triggers because of Mars in Gemini for 7 months.

You see where I'm going.  A lot of things were swirling around. I had an idea for content so I produced it.

I knew you would probably make a tie. I published anyway because if not, I would have no content which people want. The reason being I was concerned what you may feel.

I didn't think that made sense. Not because I don't care about you. I do care about you. But how would you feel that I be crippled, guessing how you might feel? It did not seem respectful. I don't know how you feel. I  would have to assume. Next thing you know, you are the reason I am censoring myself. It did not seem right for anyone.

I decided to write what was on my mind... Because it's my job but also because I have integrity. I know people think I don't, but I do. Back to the self-contained. I really work alone. You and I did not write that. I did. It was born of all the things incubating in my head at the time.

I think the key for helping people, is that they're asking for your help. I was asking for opinions about manners.   You want to discuss my trauma which may be on your mind but it wasn't on mine.

I never ask for psychological insight into my personality. I never would. I really don't like it. So it was later, when I recalled certain true assholes who have attempted to mess with me over the years. Going on 25 years, never mind other jobs. 

In the end, I thought the post might benefit you. I thought it was a different scenario described and that you see yourself? In a good way...

You said in your post you were taking something onboard. I read that to mean you knew what you were doing. Discernment. I thought you might suffer some reaction to my post but then discern.  If  you saw yourself, beyond our exchange,  you'd be informed which is good. If not, also good.

If it's not clear, you and another person I interact with are individual. I am the person in both situations do my overriding thought was that this happens a lot, I don't like it. I thought it was relatable so it got written.

That's it, outside I'd hope to segue into taking about getting triggered. But I can't keep the continuity that comes naturally to me going at this time.  This is due to personal real life challenges. Pluto on my ascendant! So unfortunately I have to drop my threads or stitches. Oh the stories I don't have time to tell.

Thanks for posting back. I am sorry I am very short at times. It's not meant to be rude. I have so much to handle and juggle, I try to answer things as fast as I can. This is because if I don't, there is a chance I never get back.

I hope you'll stay around. I like talking to you and your remarks are kind, insightful and often enough, they're brilliant. In the sea of hate out there, it's pretty special.

Publish before something happens and this erases!

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sophiab
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@elsa Thanks Elsa. It's all understandable. Pluto on the me/we axis is a crucial transit for delineating what is self and what is other, and why we see ourselves and others as we do. Also, how this can be transformed through self exploration. I think that's key - that this knowledge has to come from self experience, rather than from listening to others, although it's always going to be gained through the field of relating. What has come up here between you and me is potentially part of a theme for the transit, so I can see it's not personal. It's good that it led to working through on both sides.

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Libra Noir
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@sophiab Fwiw I find your outlook to be really brilliant and the conclusions you draw are fascinating to me. You’ve blown my mind more than once. The lens you look through does seem to be ultra focused but I think that allows you to make some really intriguing connections. I don’t sense any judgement whatsoever in your posts but a desire to share a perspective that has helped you make sense of things in your own experience. 

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sophiab
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@libra-noir Thank you. I feel very much the same about what you write.

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