This is another area of concern.
What do you know? What have you seen?
I hear there aren’t affordable houses on the market. Then I hear people are paying over asking price. I’d been hearing people paying over asking price for a lot of years around here. This was well before 2020. That seemed so odd to me, especially since housing was available.
There is a rather new state law here that says every town must have affordable housing. It’s some formula of income, housing prices, etc. It’s fucking bullshit. It’s government forcing housing and the market.
My coach is also a realtor. She was very busy during the pandemic, which really saved them because they had just opened their gym the year before, and were made to close down during that time. She said it’s slowed some now, which she takes as it comes, as she can focus on the gym and coaching.
Right now, no one I know is buying. Our son would like to move out of his neighborhood but there isn’t a lot around. Our niece has been for years, for even a simple fixer upper, as her dad can do a lot, but it’s been very overpriced. They’re in Massachusetts.
Corporate institutional ownership (Blackrock for instance) of residential housing has dramatically increased, putting the market at high risk if they decide to unload their hordes of single family homes.
@jana I think so, too. I think that the things I was hearing, years ago, about people paying over asking, was very much suspicious and maybe when the Blackrock stuff started getting on the radar. This is just my hindsight…so if I could be incorrect.
Blackrock and the like are ruining it. There is a lot to lease but little to buy and what is out there to buy is 100K+ overpriced (or more) if you ask me. The shiz will hit the fan at some point.
I was killing time one day, perusing the market back home. I laughed hard when I saw the prices on some of the homes... some I have literally been in. I thought, who is paying 400K for that dump? And no one was/is.
A decent home is over half a mil where I live. How? I have no idea. I think to myself what on earth do all these people do for a living that they can afford it? But I am also seeing in my neighborhood.... 4-6 cars in the driveway for some homes. Why? The whole damn family is living in one house and sharing expenses. There is a lot of it here in the nicer neighborhoods. The people that live across the street from me live in a 600K home. The whole family lives there. Granddad, Meemaw, husband, wife, adult kids, little kids. They use the garage for storage and the driveway and street are packed. (with their cars) Looks like a dumping ground at a family reunion.
@soup I know, you're right about all the cars. I have no idea how people can have so many or afford them.
You get our age and you see cars cost as much as some homes used to back when we were young. It is mind boggling to me. I'm pretty sure the cars are headed in the same trajectory as the housing, unaffordable and in the default zone as well. It's a mess.
@ln Yes, I understand 50% of people are priced out of the auto market.
I remember Cash for Clunkers, which PISSSSSSSED me off. I understood this back then; I was still writing on Xanga at the time and I was furious.
Looking back to recall my reaction and the reaction to me when I called this out? I'm pretty much Groundhog Day.
@ln Cars are leased these days, same as with mobile phones and houses. The image is good from the outside but it's on credit, and is thus precarious. You can probably lease a husband, wife, entire family, these days... oh wait, they are already doing that in Japan (they have a loneliness epidemic).
@ln So many cars!!! Do they all live together so they can each have a car? I mean there are a lot of people living in that house. They don't bother me. They are nice. Keep the lawn nice. Say hello. I could def walk across the street and ask for help. And of course, it's none of my business, I am just telling what I see... but come on, imagine the amount of money overspent on vehicles... probably smart phones. Kids seem to have every gadget.
Three generations or more living in one house. And this is not unusual today.
My husband used to work indirect loans. He would talk about people having from 600-1000 dollar plus per month car loans on average cars. Not a Mercedes. Like... a Toyota or a Ford. And not always new. HUH? Of course, he never disclosed personal information it was just a dinner topic on how people choose to spend their money. I would be aghast. The day I make a thousand-dollar car payment would be NEVER. EVER! If I won the lotto, I would not do it. I mean that. I would opt for another means of transportation before I would ever make a 1000 - 1500-dollar car payment because it doesn't stop there. You have to have insurance to cover the loan, then repairs, tags... What is going on?
I would much rather buy food and find a way to save money... it's not going on a car and a phone.
I agree... cars will get hit too.
My neighbors have 4 cars in the driveway that they use... and several parked on the street, that they use.
I must be 100000000 years old haha My parents had one car. Dad drove it to work. We walked to school. Mom used it on the weekend to shop or whatev.... years later mom got a beater. So, there was another vehicle for emergencies, but it was never new. I mean it was a car you could pay cash for. But so was my dads. My parents wouldn't use credit on a bet. Once my mother had no cash and was caught and had to pay for something, so she used her Mastercard. She was mortified. She said over and over ...omg I have to get home and pay that off. The amount was 70 dollars LOL and I need to add that our grandparents lived with us and so did our uncle. (they were all old and needed help so they lived with us) But there were never 10 cars. I am so confused by what people are doing today.
@soup omg…I don’t know about how people afford the cars either. I mean, good for them. The thing is, in my state, we pay a car property tax every year. It’s based on your town mil rate, age of the car, type of car. Basically, if it has wheels, it’s taxed every year. That includes our trailer we have to haul things, and when we had our boat, the trailer property tax was due every year. So, if you have a really nice expensive car here, you will pay possibly $1,000 a year. And if you try and avoid it by registering you vehicle in MA or NY, don’t get caught!
In my circle of family and friends here, people seem to get what they can afford. Are there a couple of very nice, luxury cars on my street? Yes, but those people are doing great. Otherwise it’s just some normal CRV, a Ford pickup, a Toyota. We have two vehicles, a 2015 Ram truck and a 2008 Mazda sedan. Thankfully my husband can do almost anything on any vehicle. He buys the OEM manuals and reads them. I’ll drive that Mazda forever.
But as I said, hell, if you can afford it, by all means, enjoy a nice car. We have friends whose business is repairing Porsches and modifying them for racing. They’re doing great.
But I know my husband and I are only comfortable with what we can afford, which means leaving wiggle room and paying it off ASAP.
@allie120 I say good for them too. But when you have worked in banking, finance and collections for over 25 years and the husband did it all his life, it's hard to watch and questionable because this is not normally sustainable.
Many states tax vehicles like that. This one does not but the state I left has hefty tag costs. I mean... really high. Insurance rates are higher here though. Every state is different.
I learned a lesson a very long time ago. When I got divorced. I have always been frugal, and I have never been that gal that wants to live in the mall. I am probably too generous with my grands and kids but for myself, no. Even so when I got divorced my attorney made a mistake and didn't do a follow up with my ex. This destroyed me, just because I was married to him. I got no other benefit financially, prior. I took a vow... even married you can bet unless I can afford it alone, all by myself... this name is not going on any loan or Credit Card. Never gonna happen. I don't care what it is or who it is for. There will be no co-signing either.
The problem is this. When these people do this and eventually have to file bankruptcy this doesn't just hit them. All of us eat it in higher prices on everything. Corps get to call it a loss and then price gouge everything.
@soup I think that finances are often passed down like genes. No, they’re not the same, and they are taught or observed, obviously not literally passed down. It’s often like a family trait. And suppose you come from a family that is prone to a particular disease. Some people may see that and think, whoa…I don’t want to be like that, so they’ll live healthier. Others may not even know there is an option to do anything else. Everyone around them is this way, so that’s just the way it is.
A common response to a child who wants what the other kids have is to say, well, we aren’t the Jones, or whoever. Or, sure, earn some money and you can get the thing.
That’s one thing. Another thing is, while vehicles, homes, education, healthcare, is so much more expensive, there are many things that are cheap and abundant. Again, I can give anecdotal examples so that may or may not be appropriate. When I was a kid, I had one pair of sneakers and if I wanted to wade in the water with them, well, then I had either wet shoes or no shoes. I had one bathing suit, if I had one. New clothes when I outgrew mine. New clothes for the school year from the Sears catalog with a very limited dollar amount. My granddaughters, thankfully, live in a more prosperous household. Multiple bathing suits, so many shoes, clothes, coats…They’re not high end things. Mostly Target. And yes, kids outgrow things fast. It just seems like some things are cheap and super abundant and easily gotten.
I’m just rambling now. It just makes me, personally and like you, uncomfortable to be so squeezed.
@allie120 It makes me sound like I am 1000 years old when I speak on it, but if I wanted something out of budget from my parents I had to work. I started babysitting as a child. One summer I thought I was walking in tall cotton. I earned $30. For the whole summer. At 50 cents an hour this was a big deal to me. So, when it was time for back to school, I got what I was in budget from the parents, then the things I really wanted I bought for myself.
No one used lines of credit or if they did this was not something taught in my household. Pay for it, or you don't get it. It isn't good to owe people/establishments. I have two personal lines of credit right now that are so high it's ridiculous. I could just charge away. But that is never going to happen. I use them for gas when I go home, for the airlines, to reserve a room at a hotel, a rental car if needed, because you have to today... but if it's used it's paid off upon my arrival home and I will not go if I can't afford it. I wait till I can.
The instant gratification thing has ruined life as we knew it. When we were kids, you earned. Then you got. Today people get, then try to earn to pay it off. Young people say we had it easier, but I do want to speak on my behalf at least when I say.... WE WAITED.
It took a lifetime to build up a house full of furniture, a down payment for a nice home, cupboards full of dishes and corningwear... the good China. You got things at a wedding shower and cherished them for a lifetime.
When grandparents and parents passed down items like corningware and cookie jars you valued those things (I still do) because of sentimental values of course but also, they are things you can reuse. I have a 4-bedroom house. One of the bedrooms has my great grandmother's bedroom set in it. I refinished it. She left it to me, and I refinished it and there it is all these years later. It looks new, with some sanding and fresh refinish. I love it.
I watched my kids want it all at once and I just kept explaining that it takes decades to acquire all the things someone in their 40s-50s-60s have.
When I worked in collections, I took my son to work with me. It was take your daughter to work week. I asked why can't I bring my son? Boss said bring him, so I did. I wanted him to see the backside of overspending, debt that isn't paid. Garnishments, subpoenas, lawsuits, liens on homes. Collection calls. The law and how it stands when you either cannot or won't pay a bill. He watched us work those files. He saw first-hand and heard first-hand what happens when you ignore a bill. Or cannot pay one. He is 39 and has never had credit card debt. If he uses them, he gets antsy and pays that thing off immediately... like after vacation or whatever. Every high school should make a class like that mandatory (Sidenote: Civics too!)
I can't complain about having 'nothing' as a kid because I had so many parents. My actual parents and two sets of grandparents that hovered over me like Velcro. They would swoop in if they saw a need but that was clothes, or shoes... not toys.
We got candy at Halloween. We got a toy at Christmas. We got sweets like cakes and the like on special occasions ... Easter, Christmas... there was no access to soda and junk and endless amounts of clothes and toys. And we walked everywhere or rode a bike. It was a different time. But we gain by teaching our kids that it can be done. Just like our parents and grandparents taught us. I can pop beans in the garden and can them, lift the hood of my car and change a flat tire... and work in an office too.
If my mother made dinner and you didn't want to eat it...(we ate it) then you got none. Today this is considered abusive. Call 911! Call CPS. Dear god. What happened to discipline? Where did it go? I remember one time when my oldest was around 12 and I told him to do something he didn't want to do ... he said I will call the child abuse number. I handed him the phone and said.. I love you, but that front door is not revolving. Go out it, you will not come back in, and leave all the things I bought you here, you did not buy them. That phone, TV and stereo will not leave here until you leave here the right way. Go sit down and shut your mouth so this doesn't escalate into another scenario you won't be able to correct. He laughs hard about this today...
It would be much easier on everyone if they could delay and hold out and pay for the things they want over time. Something to dream about, something to work for. And also, if they told their kids to sit down and zip it.
Kids running adult conversations.... LOL yeah, not at my house. Go play. Small children running the household... I laugh my (XXX) off when I see it. They are not doing that kid a favor, it's not cute and letting them curse out the neighbors isn't either.... come on.
I spoiled my grands with as many hugs and kisses and go get it spirit I had in me, but when Aries sun Aries Rising Scorpio moon decided (and everyone knows I love that child so much it's stupid) to give me some lip service we had a come to Jesus meeting. I was clear. Whatever you think you have there... I have more of it. She was bringing me Mars and I brought her a little Mars Pluto. What would I have taught her if I had let her do it? Nothing. I love her too much to let her think that was appropriate for a moment.
@soup omg I hear every word of what you said 🙌
I say, in many ways we did have it easier because there wasn’t super abundant overflowing things. It’s this: you didn’t know what you didn’t know. We weren’t going to have a pool. Going to camp? What was that? “No, I can’t take you there because there’s not enough gas in the car and your dad needs it to go to work.” Going to places like Florida or Europe weren’t even something I thought was possible until after I was an adult. So, in my mind, I didn’t even know that choices were limited.
We had an aunt who never had children and she loved children so she would love to buy all the nieces and nephews presents. But my mom told her flat out not to give presents every visit. I know it killed her but she abided by it. Sometimes for Christmas when my grandparents asked what they should get us, my mother said, a set of sheets or something. Just because we needed them.
My granddaughters expect to get something every time we take them anywhere. And we do lots of things with them. And you can see the oldest, just searching for something to get just because she can. It doesn’t matter if it’s some piece of crap. Between you all and me, I really hate that. I hate it. I’d rather give them one thing on their birthday and Christmas, but then supplement their college fund or whatever other fund they have. And yes, a gift from a very special event…like, we take them somewhere special. Every time they sleep over, my husband is taking them to the toy store. One caveat though, and this actually has a positive bent: he gives them a budget at the toy store. They have fun trying to figure out what to get. And it’s amazing to watch. The Gemini wants a lot of things and takes a long time to decide. And it’s always stuffed animals. The Aries sees the thing right away and she’s good.
But, idk… their mom said she wants them to be hungry for the things they want…the thing they want in life, career, whatever. Maybe a very comfortable life allows one to do that…? I don’t know. We are all here, grandparents, parents, aunts, uncles, to hopefully model how to get shit. Because every one of them worked for it. So maybe I will be wrong again.
@soup That’s pretty much my town, my street. Not so much the cars, although when the families still have kids at home, college or unmarried, they will each have a car. The houses here are nice, upper middle class, most people on my end of the street have been here for 10 years or more, no more little kids except a grandchild across the street.
There’s a define tone around the state that people in our town and even wealthier towns, are supposed to be more “equitable”. But people earned every bit of their homes.
Canada housing market is the most precarious, at the moment, I think, but we're right behind them.
@elsa I live in the most expensive city in Canada and paid $500K in late 2021 for a 525 sq ft condo built in 1976. It was a good price compared to other condos I looked at. A small detached house costs $2 million on average now. An old teardown falling apart toxic house is $1.5 million.
My mortgage is $3000/month which is the same cost as a 1 bedroom apartment rental. Housing is 70% of my monthly income, so no car for me! I live extremely frugally to keep a roof over my head in this city. If interest rates go up another 2%, I'm screwed. They've increased 4% since early 2022. Every few months they increase 0.5% with no sign of stopping. Boomers say, in the 80s rates were 18%. Sure, but back then home prices were much cheaper relative to people's income.
Homelessness is a big problem here. The problem began when the government stopped financing new rental buildings in the 1990s. No one builds rental buildings now, just high priced condos. As everywhere, houses became investments instead of homes since the 1990s.
I could only afford my condo because I was fortunate to have cheap rent for over 22 years living in the same apartment, so I saved a 40% down payment. My income is too low to qualify for a mortgage, otherwise. I was lucky, negotiated with my bank, made a good case for myself, am an accountant and have always been good with money. I have no idea how people with precarious income remain housed in this city.
@niki that's astonishing. Thanks for confirming what I've been reading. It's infuriating!
@elsa Here's a cute 4-bedroom bungalow that just sold for $2 million (after being on the market for 7 days), built in 1947, 1800 square feet in size (4000 sq ft entire lot size), located in one of the 'lower income' neighbourhoods in my Canadian city.
I wonder what has driven the market so high. I heard foreign investment contributed.
@jana Yes, foreign investment is one of the big factors contributing to our insane real estate market. It's a relatively safe place to park an average billionaire's excess cash. Money laundering has been a big problem, too -- turn dirty (mainly illicit drugs) money into clean real estate investments.
We have a major drug problem here, too, with many deaths from fentanyl & other poison drugs. Deaths from overdoses increase ever year, at rates comparable with the rise in our real estate prices.
Many of these high-priced condos & houses are vacant because they're just investments (by foreign buyers), not homes.
Recently our province implemented a 20% foreign-buyers' tax on all home purchases by non-residents, and a 2% annual vacancy tax for foreigners. I guess those taxes aren't working, although the government said they helped a bit.
Ten years ago, that little polka-dot bungalow would have been around $700K. Now it's $2 million.
@niki omg. I have heard a lot about this, the ginormous portion of income going to housing there!
The U.S. Now Has:
1. Record $17.1 trillion in household debt
2. Record $12.0 trillion in mortgages
3. Record $1.6 trillion in auto loans
4. Record $1.6 trillion in student loans
5. Record $1.0 trillion in credit card debt
From, The Kobeissi Letter
Wow. And everyone thinks inflation will decrease and their interest rates will be going back down. I have been looking into the effects of demographics and their saying that re-shoring of industry which is a positive, will be inflationary as the building happens. The retirement of boomers and the subsequent smaller generations replacing them will result in a much higher cost of labor....It takes a while to build back all these industries so we are looking at a good 10 years of interest rates higher than when the loans originated.
@elsa Do you think that on an individual basis, the people who have so much debt feel so hopeless at some point that they just stop caring and stop trying NOT to be in debt? It’s like, why bother, I’m going to be paying this forever so…
@allie120 some of them, yes. But there are a lot of people who charged up their debt, believing it would be forgiven.
I had a number of clients ask me about this. I even had a gal in the grocery store ask me about this.
I'm not talking about student loans. I'm talking about charging up credit cards because everything would be forgiven and free in the future.
Nesara? Gesara?
I don't know anything about any of those things, which is which or what they are, but whatever it/they are, it's been believed by some segment of the population and part of if is, credit card debt will be wiped out.
They you have people who made a lot in crypto, then lost, but not before they spent all kinds of money.
These are just some of the ways some of the people got caught. If I sat here and thought about it, I'd have a long list.
@elsa I feel that underneath, people do believe, somehow, that their debt will be forgiven, and yes, not even including student loans. Part of me feels like it’s a very Neptune thing.
And wow, I’d never heard of NESARA or Gesara but I have it pulled up. Thank you!
@allie120 My aunt (Pisces sun born in 1959) was bad with money. She racked up $15K on her credit card in her 50s, got cancer, and the credit card debt was wiped clean because she had some kind of fatal illness insurance on it. So yes, I'm sure a lot of people spend big time on frivolities to boost their fragile ego, expecting their debts to be forgiven.
My aunt had a bad case of entitlement syndrome and was codependent on parents and partners, expecting a lot of financial and emotional support. She ghosted me in her 40s, then reconnected in her 50s and immediately asked me to lend her $5000 and co-sign on a mortgage for her latest lover, whom I didn't know. Obviously she couldn't get a mortgage, even with a decent stable government job. And obviously I didn't co-sign. If it weren't for the responsible nature of her new lover, I wouldn't have been repaid the $5000 I lent them to buy fancy unneeded home furnishings (and I got most of my home furnishings for free from the alley or the Salvation Army).
My sister (Scorpio sun) inherited the entitlement syndrome and is bad with money too. Her $30K student debt was wiped clean (some loophole in the system). That helped prop up her belief from a young age that her debts will continue to be forgiven. At 36 she secured herself a professor husband, had 2 kids, dreamed of being a poet, never returned to a paid job, and now at 50, is getting a permanent disability government pension for a concussion 4 years ago, with long term effects that seem a bit questionable now.... but who am I to judge?
She said to me, what if your bank fails, and your mortgage is forgiven, it could happen you know? I just laughed and said I wasn't quitting my 3 jobs anytime soon. She's one of those people who believes debts will be forgiven, as she continues to spend on extravagances, travel overseas every year, funded by her sugar daddy or her biological daddy. (She keeps in touch with the ahole for any scraps he might have left after he's gone.).
Chalk it up to astrology. I have a 5 planet stellium in Taurus, so who am I to judge? I just wish I could meet someone like Soup's parents, ashamed to charge $70 on credit. I don't know many. I long for the financial values of many people of that generation. The 1930s Depression instilled some good values. Sacrifice is just too hard now with all those shiny delicious ego-boosting things to consume out there, making everyone truly Depressed.
@niki omg what a sad history there. I think it would so disconcerting and frightening to have debt hanging over one’s head, bills, letters, phone calls, even liens, always lurking around the corner. I’m relieved you were paid back because that was such a good thing you did.
I know my in-laws never had a credit card and they seemed to have paid everything in cash, eventually, cars and houses but they weren’t wealthy, just frugal and saved. When my FIL died and my MIL wanted to take trips, she did what she could afford but she had no credit card (and you’d need one) so my husband let her use his and she was so gracious.
As far as a credit card goes, unless you pay it off timely, you’re spending more money and in addition, lots of the things are already old or maybe don’t bring that shiny joy or it’s a meal that’s long been eaten!
I understand it’s also a hamster wheel some people can’t get off. Or they procrastinate. Or do the things you’ve described above.