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Making changes in groups of people.
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Thesecondphoenix
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Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - 7:36 pm
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I am starting to realise that all this jealousy of people and groups, pretensiousness etc. is so that the group can resist change.

I remember distinctly when teasing a left wing girl, how it struck me when America had all that trouble with Trump getting elected it was as if the middle class types did not want to elect Trump because they did not want to talk about him over one of their dinners. All the subjects he talks about they wanted to avoid, like immigration. The set middle class way of looking at things is that nothing that upsets the status quo should be talked about i.e. religion or politics. Which are coincidentally the things that can actually change the current reality we are living in.

It’s like those sorts of social rules are held so deeply for some people as to actually change their fundamental values on a deep level. Perhaps also these people know on a deep level that Trump, will actually change things. (As Susan Surandon is quoted as saying here)

humantraffickingarrests.jpg

I’ve been thinking of the things that can upset a group like this and obviously, it is coming that they will really be upset.

So I’m wondering about the astrology of someone that will, not only be able to bring the change and upset the social fabric of these individuals but will do so in a way that they are in a strong enough position to not then be opposed effectively by the opposition of these individuals. To go into a group of people and be able to upset the balance in a way that others know is important and positive.

I think an important part of this though is to have others supporting the person because no one can do these things alone, so perhaps the strength would not be… for instance, the placement of Saturn but would be the result of that persons close confidants. Although, in strict terms, Trumps Saturn is in house 11!

Another one to consider who’s character does it in a negative way is Heath Ledger:

astrocomheathledger.JPG

Bi Quintiles to Sun from Uranus and Saturn and opposition in seventh house Pluto retrograde. I wonder though, as I have often looked at actors and musicians and not really seen a great deal in their charts that would explain them, if it is more Heaths ‘soul’ that is doing this? But the joker definitely disturbs the normal way of doing things.

Another one is someone like Bob Dylan who has Saturn conjunct Uranus in fifth and the way it works is people are very much ‘sucked in’ by him. Also consider songs like ‘Positively fourth street’. But then are people really “changed” by him and Bob Dylan was a little left wing in my understanding.

Edit: Just to add I do think there are those that change the make up of this group by being loving and honest while still respecting the groups boundaries. This takes a lot of work and the change is somewhat incremental from my perspective.

Transiting Uranus of course will likely change the job market and slowly upset the balance here in these things, but does anyone think these thoughts are interesting or have any personal experiences or theoretical things to say on this?

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JoFrance
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Tuesday, July 10, 2018 - 9:59 pm
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Its hard to change groups of people, but this is a conversation we need to have. The middle class in America has long been neglected by both parties and that is how Trump got elected. Both Democrats and Republicans, who I call the Uniparty, ignored how poorly the middle class were doing for years. They outsourced our jobs to imported labor or overseas, saddled us with unaffordable healthcare and allowed our country to be infiltrated with drugs and illegal immigration. Half the country wanted something new.

Most of my family, aside from my older sister, are either liberal or don’t bother voting. We’ve had a couple of group conversations and its just amazing how little they know about politics or policies. The only thing they’re sure of is that they don’t like Trump, but I tell them you don’t have to like him, just look at how he is bringing prosperity back to the country for the middle class. They all have more money in their pocket because of his policies.

I don’t know if it’ll sink in or not with them. They are just apathetic and self-absorbed but its to their detriment and the rest of us to not care.

There is a new movement now called #Walkaway. Its basically Democrats that are seeing that the Democrat party has never kept their promises to the people for years so they’re moving over to the Republican party that is now the party of Trump. The Democrat party has been taken over by Socialists so Democrats that were more moderate no longer have a place there.

Democrats, like Susan Sarandon, know Trump will change everything and they don’t like it. Her and the rest of the rich elitists have no idea how the middle class has been hurting all these years. We’re experiencing deep social change right now. This is our civil war and its being fought without guns, so far, but its ugly. I expect that the tensions will escalate over the next few years. The US is having its Pluto return which will be complete by 2024.

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Thesecondphoenix
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Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - 9:36 am
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Good post Jo France, but what I was trying to say is that influencing a group of such people in a personal way more than getting them to accept the Trump phenomena.

For instance, right wing people can be just as dense. Try explaining to them that you tried for x amount of time and could not get a job despite (outline efforts made to get a job). They will start trying to “flail”. Or sometimes these types believe the government is always right and the NSA did nothing illegal, or even morally objectionable, by tapping everyone’s phones, emails etc. Or it’s always good to go to war etc.

A lot of Trumpers supported him bombing Syria over “chemical weapons”.

What I am talking about is getting them to a point where their values clash with reality and forcing them to acknowledge it. But without the ability for their ‘social aggression’ to then be able to influence the ‘messenger’. As with Trump the man, as oppose to Trump the message. He walks in a room and what can these left wing toffs do? Whine?

I have a friend who is able to draw emotional honesty in a position where these groups would flat out avoid it.

Heath Ledger at other moments, such as Brokeback Mountain, does not challenge peoples perception in any way.

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chad
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Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - 10:08 am
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Natal Uranus opposite Chiron.

Many people have this.

Many…

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Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - 11:30 am
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chad said
Natal Uranus opposite Chiron.

Many people have this.

Many…  

I do! I do!  👋 👋 👋 

What does it mean, though? Uranus is about to conjunct my natal Chiron, too….

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Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - 12:21 pm
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This is definitely a role that is important in society. For the person who embodies that role, I think it would be wise to not attach oneself too tightly to it.

I think it would create barriers to ones own expansion in ideas to try to do this.

A true maverick just does follows their own path without the need to change others. The attachment to that role can create some sort of dichotomy within the psyche of the person playing this role which actually goes against living ones truth. Living ones truth is the most powerful game changer. That energy expands outward in a way that holding an intention for change does not. 

Ive personally discovered that all the barriers or inconguencies that need to be dealt with are in my own mind. If someone is dense, then thats their business. When I leave myself to go into someone elses energy field, I leave behind the essential part of me. 

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Thesecondphoenix
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Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - 1:25 pm
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That is very likely true but there is still an astrology to the person who infringes on these groups ‘safe space’. Also, if you consider someone like a comedian the energy of the infringement could happen but it could have no direction.

Also, there are two elements to it. Being the one doing the crazy, and being defended from the backlash. The backlash protection probably involves more thought out things, taking care of everyday tasks and work stuff is more of a thought out thing and usually does not reflect genuineness too much. Also, drawing out these groups bad ideas, which they usually only do to kick someone when they are down. So perhaps seeming to be reasonably meek before the friction starts.

Chiron Uranus opposition may be correct but I do not have a large enough sample size to know for sure.

I also wonder if it is a male thing more than a female thing. Women do have friction and argue but where guys often seem to be pinning down ideas, women when they argue sometimes seem to sound a little hysterical. But women sort of emotionally own the room and when they clearly express favour for the guys saying these things, then that… stops opposition a little.

So an example I’m thinking of is, we’ll call people bringing the ideas as ABC/s and the group as Borg Drones:

Person A: Says something original the group objects to.

Borg drones: Go quiet hoping person will hang themselves.

Person A: Expands on what they are saying.

Borg drone A: Tries to query on that, thinks they see an opening.

Person A: Defends self well.

Borg drone B and C: Passive aggressive comments

Person B (female): Supports person A, room goes quiet and a little deflated.

Person C, important person in relation to this gathering, joins discussion. Person A states some evidence of competance that Borg drones cannot compete with so they go passive aggressive.

Losers then offer their butthurt form of “worship” by talking behind the others back, powerless to change the fact they are losers, and persons A, B and C are not losers.

Or course in such an interaction it would not be over, and there are perhaps other models to how it could go down… For instance, Person A could escape by the skin of their teeth but by not being put down by them be able to support Person C who is the real game changer? Either way, there would be a temporary respite and ‘normality’ would not reign. Normallity does reign in almost all of these situations and… that is important! Perhaps we could say, for social change to happen that has to change.

I don’t know if this whole idea is something other people relate to or could give experiences of and have idea of astrology? Or if these are more personal perspectives. 

Libra Noir said
This is definitely a role that is important in society. For the person who embodies that role, I think it would be wise to not attach oneself too tightly to it.

I think it would create barriers to ones own expansion in ideas to try to do this.

A true maverick just does follows their own path without the need to change others. The attachment to that role can create some sort of dichotomy within the psyche of the person playing this role which actually goes against living ones truth. Living ones truth is the most powerful game changer. That energy expands outward in a way that holding an intention for change does not. 

Ive personally discovered that all the barriers or inconguencies that need to be dealt with are in my own mind. If someone is dense, then thats their business. When I leave myself to go into someone elses energy field, I leave behind the essential part of me.   

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Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - 3:01 pm
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Thesecondphoenix said
Good post Jo France, but what I was trying to say is that influencing a group of such people in a personal way more than getting them to accept the Trump phenomena.

For instance, right wing people can be just as dense. Try explaining to them that you tried for x amount of time and could not get a job despite (outline efforts made to get a job). They will start trying to “flail”. Or sometimes these types believe the government is always right and the NSA did nothing illegal, or even morally objectionable, by tapping everyone’s phones, emails etc. Or it’s always good to go to war etc.

A lot of Trumpers supported him bombing Syria over “chemical weapons”.

What I am talking about is getting them to a point where their values clash with reality and forcing them to acknowledge it. But without the ability for their ‘social aggression’ to then be able to influence the ‘messenger’. As with Trump the man, as oppose to Trump the message. He walks in a room and what can these left wing toffs do? Whine?

I have a friend who is able to draw emotional honesty in a position where these groups would flat out avoid it.

Heath Ledger at other moments, such as Brokeback Mountain, does not challenge peoples perception in any way.  

He bombed deep state controlled chemical and nuclear facilities in Syria, NTI.org for one. Check out the board members…

President Trump fits me to a “T,” in both personality and policies — perhaps because his Sun is conjunct my Jupiter, and his Ascendant conjuncts my POF.

This thread makes me wonder if there are astrological markers for those who end up “woke” vs. the sheep, the resisters, the anarchists, the socialists, etc.

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Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - 3:45 pm
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A lot of Trumpers didn’t know that at the time but still supported him.

Regardless, I don’t want to really get into that and trust that people like you do have reasons to support unconventional, from an educated perspective, policies like that.

This question… woke vs “sheep” (sheep is always a term I’ve hated, we begin to think like the cabal when we talk like that), anyway, it is the kind of direction I think is interesting. It is not the exact question I was asking in that I know a guy who was woke, who was a councellor and musician, who could keep a room of such people entertained without upsetting their reality. But it is in the same ballpark as what I was asking.

I recall Liz Greene once saying that people that live unremarkable lives do not have strong connections to the outer planets (for those that don’t know that’s Uranus, Neptune and Pluto). HOWEVER, truly one of the most woke people there is… David Wilcock, doesn’t have those outer planet connections.

I think when I am asking this I am focusing on Uranus partly because I am quite Uranian, in fact, with an exact Uranus Moon conjunction where I go to relax, and in a group setting we should often relax, if the point is enjoyment and easy socialising, and my Uranus is what will rankle a lot of other people.

In the larger sense, as it applies to others though it is also Neptune and Pluto that is relevant here. Perhaps Jupiter as well. Neptune is as of an astrologer or new age person, or insightful person who fixes others values. Pluto is the depth. Jupiter is the emotional realist and truth.

Warped by Wuthering Heights said

He bombed deep state controlled chemical and nuclear facilities in Syria, NTI.org for one. Check out the board members…

President Trump fits me to a “T,” in both personality and policies — perhaps because his Sun is conjunct my Jupiter, and his Ascendant conjuncts my POF.

This thread makes me wonder if there are astrological markers for those who end up “woke” vs. the sheep, the resisters, the anarchists, the socialists, etc.  

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Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - 5:30 pm
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Uranus is change. Groups are 11th house. 

I actually have Uranus in 11th in Scorpio. 

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Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - 5:48 pm
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Drug people all up then make them follow their evil lord, Lord Voldemort! devil devil devil

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Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - 6:58 pm
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WBWH, I can relate to President Trump too. My Sun is conjunct his Moon in Sagittarius, sextile his Jupiter and Trine his Pluto. He is the ultimate troll to the right people, but he isn’t mean, he’s funny. He has the uncanny ability to get people to show their true face. Its something that really needed to happen. His policies have really saved this country, IMO. I have never seen a president so hard-working and committed to winning for the US. He’s kicking a&&.

I think there probably are markers for woke vs. the sheep. Both sides are stirred up. That has to be the effect of the Pluto/Uranus square over the past several years, say 2015 to now. How your natal planets aspect that square show how the change affects you. For myself, my natal Mars and Uranus square or oppose the transiting Pluto/Uranus square. I am woke, in that I know change is coming. Maybe other people have less significant aspects to the transit and aren’t compelled to see it.

Phoenix, I probably misinterpreted your original post. I only mentioned Trump because he is the catalyst. Otherwise, we would never even be talking about this in such an open way.

I think far right wingers can be equally obstinate as far left wingers in their beliefs, but they’re both being decimated by the party of Trump. There are no labels there, everyone is welcome and we all just want the best for the country.

BTW, I saw Brokeback Mountain and thought it was very honest and touching, but I hated Heath Ledger in Batman. I think that role led to his demise. I can’t imagine how some actors can play such heinous roles and then walk away without it affecting them personally. I think maybe they can’t.

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Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - 7:40 pm
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The post lost nothing through being further refined. It is a very abstract question being brought down to a very material reality so it is a process. I also talked a lot about Trump in the first post.

I’ve never seen Brokeback Mountain but, you have surely committed heresy by saying the Joker role was not inspired! I do though generally think it is not wise though to play with forces that dark. In his case I doubt there was a suicide he was probably offed but there are so many of those people that really believe in that satanic stuff in hollywood it’s probably better to stay away. I am literally trying to free my mind from that dark sort of thinking. I got a few dreams a few months ago that were very dark and not that positive and they’re sort of falling away now I have more healthy habits.

There are a lot of links to this part of my psyche.

In a sense there are two potentials for bringing this energy forward in a way that interfers as I have summarised. One is through you’re own outer planets, i.e. Bob Dylan channeling his own music, and the other is through someone else, i.e. TALKING about someone elses as in talking about Trumps. So that’s carrying his transit. But then he is radiating a fairly clean Uranus.

However, there is yet more divide here, you can talk about Trumps policies or what you understand of the free market. So it’s not just the man himself.

JoFrance said
Phoenix, I probably misinterpreted your original post. I only mentioned Trump because he is the catalyst. Otherwise, we would never even be talking about this in such an open way.

BTW, I saw Brokeback Mountain and thought it was very honest and touching, but I hated Heath Ledger in Batman. I think that role led to his demise. I can’t imagine how some actors can play such heinous roles and then walk away without it affecting them personally. I think maybe they can’t.  

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Wednesday, July 11, 2018 - 10:36 pm
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Sorry, have not read the whole topic – I cannot stomach discussions about politicicians.  Sorry, it leaves me feeling ill (green – nausiated).

By the way, I mean, most of ANY politicians I read about, anywhere in the world (and most of the historic ones too).  Sorry. I simply find that too many of them lack human charity (aka caring about their fellow humans).

ETA: having now read all the posts… just want to say, US politics belongs to US voters- period.

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Thursday, July 12, 2018 - 1:09 am
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Trump is currently at NATO, having told EU countries they are not paying enough and he may sanction European Companies who deal with Russian Oil. Having floated the idea he will be withdrawing troops from Germany and allowing an open door for Putin into Germany, I would say Trump vastly new geopolitical style is fast becoming relevant to everyone.

The English equivalent is Brexit which is slowed so incredibly, (deliberately obviously), that it has fallen from public interest. It also does not have a natal chart.

Poppy said
Sorry, have not read the whole topic – I cannot stomach discussions about politicicians.  Sorry, it leaves me feeling ill (green – nausiated).

By the way, I mean, most of ANY politicians I read about, anywhere in the world (and most of the historic ones too).  Sorry. I simply find that too many of them lack human charity (aka caring about their fellow humans).

ETA: having now read all the posts… just want to say, US politics belongs to US voters- period.  

That might be moreso what this is about. We have had a Brexit vote but no results from it… Imagine how insufferable the left would be if they had managed to stop Trump going through in America as President? They keep the jobs away with their terrible globalist policies and condescend to the poor for not sorting themselves out in the economic environment they have created.

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