My husband has strong (and hilarious) opinions on this topic, expressed over the years.
““Yeah, my whole world has gone to hell. Men are feminized now, P. They’re like girls or something…” Non-Feminized Men Fashion Show
“You’re right. I will turn into a girl. That’s exactly what’ll happen, I’m glad you’re figuring this out, P.” “I Will Turn Into A Girl” – Women Feminizing – Men – Why Do They Do It?
““They like feminized men because they have more in common with them.” On Women Who Feminize Men Redux
“I don’t know. They want a man who cries, I guess. They want their men to cry all the time.” Speaking Of Beta Males – On Feminizing Men
Obviously, I go for an alpha male. Perhaps this is because I have Mars in a yang sign, in a yang house but whatever it is, I am completely baffled by women who want to put make-up on men, or pretty them up in any way. Same thing with their sons.
Are you involved in trend? Do you think it’s peaked? Is there something gained by repressing the Mars (male) function?
Funny, my 3 sisters are the bread winners in the family. (i am single.) The husbands work part time, if they work, do the cleaning and the cooking. And my parents taught us to be this way… strong independent women, not dependent on a man so we attract men who are like this…need that strong independent woman. One sister’s Mars is Aries, Middle one is Leo Sun;Taurus Mars, Oldest one has Virgo Sun and Mars. Me? Sun in Sag, Mars in Leo. She is the controlling one out of all of us kids.
I am seeing the trend changing… like my sisters are real tired of working all the time, and missed out on their kids’ childhood. They want the men to be men again…the guys are happy with their lives as is.
Interesting times indeed.
Being older, I’ve watched this change over my lifetime, and I’d say it’s gone to far. When I was a kid men were still men (they’d all just been through the war of course) and women had women friends for intimacy, and mostly stayed at home, being ‘home-makers’. I’m old fashioned enough to feel very uncomfortable when I see women emasculating their men.
By chance I read only this morning of a study which purports to show that men whose women earn much more than they do are far more likely to be unfaithful, and those who are house-husbands particularly so (how do they find the time? lol)
I don’t think a man has to be ‘macho’ to be an alpha male btw. My man is DEF an alpha male, but like most of mine, he has a strong feminine side and is good looking in a quite ‘female’ way – he was very ‘beautiful’ in his late 20s. I’ve always found that kind of man makes a much more sensitive / reciprocal lover and I’m sure that’s part of their attraction (downside is some of them are gay!). I don’t want a lover who has to be always in charge
I could never partner with a man who didn’t do at least as well as me in his career though – I have to respect a man professionally to feel desire for him. My mother had more money than my father (inherited not earned) and she consquently wore the trousers in their marriage. It was horrible to watch him always being bullied and chivvied; and I’ve seen that in many more recent relationships… {shudder}
yeah becoming a girls wrong unless you want to be.
So where do you find these women who like a feminine man
“They like feminized men because they have more in common with them.”
-ROFL That is so true! But, there are other things to have in common than things that are gender-sourced.
But, many of the things he counts as a man being girly are actually gender-nuetral. Most things in the universe are incorrect to right off as for a particular gender.
But, he isn’t wrong about girls wishing guys were less manly. I think most women want a level of “girliness” to a man.
It could be because she’s afraid a real man will abuse his power and hurt her, because one or more have in the past. (Trust issues. Your typical ex-victim scar.)
It could be because she is a lesbian choosing to take a male mate for breeding or some other loveless reason.
It could be that she isn’t ready for a real man yet and needs to mature more herself.
It could be about wishing guys just plain made more sense to us, because guys can be pretty silly and/or strange (AKA dumb) to girls.
It could be about wanting a man to treat as a child.
Etc.
So you’re telling me the Soldier never pulls a “Why can’t a woman be more like a man”?
Amaising stuff.. just how i feel at 49 years if age… i love to be at a womans becon call.. but dont enjoy their self centeredness like a 10 year old boy… you wont die alone there 100 000 men had the very same experiences… believe the same thing… some still traped in an emotionless marraige of nothingness… i love woman species with all my heart but cannot bear the mental agony they produce… it is so bad.. and getting worse as my grandfatger said.
Welcome, Garry.
Shakti, I am not sure what you are talking about.
My husband thinks women are utterly inept at being men so would not have an expectation they do anything but be female. He is a Neanderthal, let’s just get that clear.
If you mean has he ever made a comment like, “Why do women have to cry all the time?” He has. But this is because women are mysterious to him and it’s different from expecting or suggesting they behave like men.
I have had to remind him from time to time that I am not a green beret but again this is not because he wishes I were one, it’s just his experience with women and his understanding of them is very limited.
One conclusion he has drawn is this: Women are not men. I don’t think he professes to know much more than that.
They cry a lot and they need to get laid. Those are two other things he knows or thinks he knows, and oh yeah:
Don’t move shit around in their kitchen unless you want to be beaten with a rolling pin.
Some of them are viscous.
There you have it. The sum total of what my husband knows about women.
I don’t know any woman who wants a feminine man. Maybe it’s my age group, mid-thirties.
In the fashion world you see all feminine male models going down the runway because gay men run that world and they put up what they like. I think it’s the same with high fashion women models. They look almost like men. Their bodies are not womanly. I think that is all a product of a homosexual and bisexual industry. Which is totally fine. I have no problem with people’s personal expression and sexuality. But I don’t think it represents what is attractive most men and women.
I’m Aquarius Mars (Venus too) and androgyny is not something that I have a problem with depending on how it displays – a man who is considered somewhat “pretty” is more than fine by me, and a man crying here and there in an emotionally ultra-charged situation is fine, too (and I owe at least some of my comfort level with that to having a Pisces dad!) What is gaggy to me is something like a muscle head guy (eg Fabio) wearing a long blond ponytail and eyeliner. THAT squicks me out bigtime!
Elsa, IIRC and I might not – isn’t your husband a Cancer Mars? Does some of his point of view have to do with that, do you think? Actively trying to keep that part of himself “hidden”?
nice of you to allow men to cry here and there 😉
🙂 The soldier is who he is… no analyzing required! I love this
It is nice, isn’t it? 😉
amandapm – yeah, he has a Cancer Mars and he fights for women, children and his homeland.
Elsa – that makes sense!
It’s always interesting how Mars plays out – my husband is Mars Leo, very masculine placement, works in law enforcement, has done tours of duty in some of modern history’s most godforsaken conflicts…Rwanda…Mogadishu…Iraq…
But comes off like a total pussycat. God bless him!
IDK? I dont get it? I have Mars in Aries and really really really get turned off by feminized men. I love the Alpha Male type! Dont get me wrong I love romantic men (venus in pisces trine neptune) who have all the right moves, who can sweep me off my feet, but the strong dominant type really does it for me.
No comment. I could write about this for hours. And I don’t wanna.
hopefully it is nice, yes 😉
i think women should be more assertive themselves. starting with me.
by which i mean our culture’s repression of mars is, in my head, a massive cluster for everyone.
Well I like a man to be man. I dont mind a man crying over a good book or movie or piece of music that moves him , that to me is endearing ((Mars conjunct Neptune) but I love good ole testostorone. I love a man in jeans and T-shirts, who know maths stuff and how to fix things and enjoys a good beer and gets all riled up over sport (footy) and is up for sex but I have Mars in Sag so go figure!!!
It wouldn’t surprise me if the feminization of men directly correlates with the spike in birth control usage over the years. Found an article published in 2009: “Scientists say the hormones in the oral contraceptive suppress a woman’s interest in masculine men and make boyish men more attractive.” Sounds plausible.
When I first heard about the summer movie, The Expendables, I thought, THANK GOD! It heralds the age of the masculine man, or bringing masculinity back. About time.
Yep, plausible and interesting as hell – thanks Cardinal.
Here is an article…
Another thing to consider – the attraction to feminized men in this country is undeniable but I wonder if this is the case worldwide and how this would correlate with the usage of birth control pills.
If this is the case, I think we as women should get the hell off the pills and be our normal selves. Hell of a side effect!
I was on the pill for a year and I just quit (last month). Before that I was never on it. I like being my normal self and being in tune with my body.
Venus Mars opposed Pluto, I’m not attracted OR attractive to femme guys. I scare the shit out of them and they do nothing to stir my loins. I NEED a man to be very solidly male. I don’t want a man to be like me.
“There you have it. The sum total of what my husband knows about women.”
Good. It’s taken me until the last year and a half to distinguish actual truth from ideology. It’s taken me some 33 yrs to finally quit it; to stop torturing myself and making myself crazy; to stop trying to find a foothold in seawater; 33 yrs to pay attention to, and draw my lessons from, what women do, and not what they say they want…basically, three decades to learn to stop drinking the feminist cool aid that my amazing mother, my two wonderful sisters, my incredible wife, and most of the western media and contemporary culture, have repeatedly told men like me is not only nourishing, but tasty.
Nope. Sorry. It’s not. It’s nasty. And in my experience, it makes everyone – male and female – crazier than they need to be.
Must be your woman’s intuition, Ms Elsa, for this very night, with a beer for me and a glass of white wine for her, I came out of the alpha closet and called her bluff. And the look of relief and agreement (but no little guilt, for ‘betraying’ the ’cause’…her words) with just about all of what I was saying…was remarkable.
I can’t imagine I’m alone in feeling as I do. Perhaps a greater shift is coming. But in the end, I can’t wait for that. I’ll just get on with doing what I have to do.
Keep gazing skyward, Elsa. Loving the syncing.
::waves @ Scot::
taking hormonal birth control changes women’s reactions to pheromones:
“Research done on human females shows that they too prefer men whose MHC genes are the least similar to their own (Richardson 1996). In an experiment, men were given an unscented T-shirt and were asked to wear it for two nights in a row. During this time they were not to use deodorants or scented soaps. Women were then presented with six shirts – three from men with similar MHC genes, and three from men with different MHC genes from their own. The results showed that the women preferred the scents of men whose MHC genes were different from their own. The scent of men with similar MHC genes often remind the women of a relative’s odor, such as a brother or father while the smells of MHC dissimilar men would often remind them of a past or current boyfriend. This suggests that body odor might have influenced past and current decisions on who to date.
It was also found that women who were taking birth control pills would often choose the T-shirts of men with similar MHC genes as smelling better. A possible explanation for this is that birth control pills trick the body into thinking its pregnant, and women on the pill often report that they prefer smells that remind them of home and relatives. Since natural preferences are reversed a woman might then be attracted to men she normally wouldn’t be – namely men with similar MHC genes (Furlow 1996).”
CardinalAngles, I knew I’d read a study about it but thanks for reminding me. I like to know WHY things work or I can’t assimilate the info.
Another thing about oral birth control is, that the female hormones get excreted into the water system, and this has gradually ferminized men physically over the last 40 years. It’s not just men either who have a far lower sperm count now than when studies began – so do trout and other fresh water fish! So it’s a fact there are many more ‘feminized’ men around, than there were before attitudes started to change in the late 60s.
My own feeling if women prefer to be with androgynous and feminized men, is that it’s a reaction to the male violence which was considered normal in previous generations. Less than 100 years ago women were still legally ‘chattels’ of their husbands, in most countries – to be *used* as the man saw fit. Educated women at least now don’t tolerate that kind of crap, and they also expect a more equal relationship with emotional openness and honesty from their partner. But that turned into a power struggle, and maybe went too far.
I’m of the ‘women’s lib’ generation but I’ve never personally believed that you can ‘have it all’. Someone always suffers – usually the kids; and another casualty is a man’s self-esteem. What is the man’s role, when women can get pregnant via IVF, and support their own children? I don’t know how you square the circle
I have never tried to “feminize” a man in my life. I mean, I was never attracted to a “bully”‘; no-one is going to tell me what to do, what to think, etc.,; but I need my man to act like one.
I
Been thinking about this and my wager is this is 80% social causes and 20% other.
I believe that the goal of every man and woman is to integrate their opposite within themselves. Men integrate the anima and women their animus. Its the next step in evolution. Sex as we know it now may change as a result. Sex may become less material and more spiritual as men and women become whole unto god. The next step after integration is union with the divine. So I encourage every man to become woman and woman to become like a man. Dressing up is not necessary. Expression of emotion is always healthy for either sex. Repression is not a sign of masculinity 🙂
Gender roles could stand to be shaken up a bit. I think its sad that in our society men are denied that access to the emotional sphere a women get cut off from the sphere of achievement. I don’t think it would hurt anyone to give everyone access to both. A newborn boy cries when he is sad and doesnt care about whether he is seen as masculine. And toddler girls kick the shit out of anyone who invades their territory. It isnt until boys are taught shame for their emotions and girls are taught shame for displaying assertiveness that these are repressed. This feels like a saturn in libra topic…
“I believe that the goal of every man and woman is to integrate their opposite within themselves. Men integrate the anima and women their animus. Its the next step in evolution. Sex as we know it now may change as a result. Sex may become less material and more spiritual as men and women become whole unto god.”
@Curiositina – If we don’t procreate, it will be the end of the human race.
Somehow, I how I doubt this.
ah well my version of sex is too metaphysical. Obviously we would still procreate. There is more to sex than procreation. yet you didnt touch the rest of my comment. you think its healthy for men to repress their emotions andt as violence? should women repress their anger or assertiveness in the name of femininity and become masochists? This is the trend i see lately and have witnessed children being trained to think this way. yet you and the majority of people here seems to glorify this type of rigid gender role ideology. Why are more women than men self mutilating and suicidal why are more men going to schools and gunning down schools? would a little balance hurt any of us? Do we as a society need to be so polarized in order to function?
Curiositina – hundreds of people comment here every day and it’s not possible I address everything people may bring up. It’s not feasible as a human being.
To quickly address the emotional issue, no I don’t think it is healthy for society to expect men to repress their emotions. I also don’t think it is healthy for society to expect men to come up with emotions they don’t have.
Biologically men and women are different and I can’t imagine this needs “fixed”. Humans have been around awhile – which tells me we’re doing something right.
What is funny to me is someone can be born in this era and discount thousands of years of history as jacked up.
I mean it’s not *that* jacked up or we’d have died out long ago.
Also a lot of us (probably most of us) are happy with our sex. This is a lot to ignore.
Re: the violence you cite, it is mild when compared to what has gone on historically.
I am sorry if this provokes more debate. I did want to address your question but I am going to sign off here because I was up @ 4 am and it is going on 9 PM.
Thanks for sharing your opinion. I do like discourse but have a very big job running and writing this blog and this limits me.
ah well my version of sex is too metaphysical. Obviously we would still procreate. There is more to sex than procreation. Or people would not have nearly as much sex. All I am really saying is that too much masculinity in males and too much femininity in females can be very destructive. Why do women tend to self-mutilate and become depressed more than males? Why are anger and violence acceptable in males yet emotions like sadness or fear banned from them? Why are males the only gender to gun down highschools? Anyone who has studied Reich, Jung and Freud would understand the psychology behind this. Its a failure to integrate different aspects of their personality. Too much one sidedness in character leads to obsession/mania which leads to destructive behavior. Its like loving a child but giving him no sense of self-discipline. He becomes spoiled and self indulgent. Or you discipline a child without love. He whithers away. He needs love and discipline to flourish and truly thrive. It is the same with us as male and female we need balance of masculine/fem. energy in order to thrive as human and spiritual beings. I hope to have made my position more clear.
I have mars in leo with a cardinal sun contact and I *hate* feminized men, guyliner, girl pants, dudes who spend more time in front of the mirror than I do and all that stuff. In fact it makes me feel squeamish. I feel like I’m flirting with a little kid. Or just a weirdo.
Even when it has nothing to do with romantic attraction, I just like men. I like their confidence and straightforwardness and loyalty. Their social rules are very simple and extremely effective. I like that they’ll tell you the truth. I like that they can do stuff I don’t know how to do but they’re also *interested* in knowing how to do it since I’m not. If this is a person who can’t change his own tires then to me that’s a chick.
In fact I was seeing a guy one time who told me that all our differences came from the fact that he was a man and I was a woman. What I didn’t say was no, the problem is we’re both girls…
Sorry for mutliple postings of the same sentence. I was trying to edit this all on my phone rather unsuccessfully, I see.
As for your limited time: I understand but it’s a bit upsetting that you would only address the thing that you could pick out and make fun of rather than the part that could contribute to actual useful conversation.
As for this part of your comment “Humans have been around awhile – which tells me we’re doing something right. ”
That’s not exactly sound proof logic. Have you taken a look at the world around you lately? The majority of astrologers and trend forecasters (including yourself) have mentioned how we (as a government, society and race) are headed towards collapse due to our history.
As for my sex, I’m quite happy with being female. But I am more than a female. I am a human being and also a soul. And there are many many ways to express myself other than prescribed gender roles.
Thanks for the conversation.
I don’t want a man who acts feminine (yeck!), but there’s something sexy about a burly, oak-tree of a man in a kilt and eyeliner. *swoons!* And the opposite, as well: a glammed-out curvy girl in a severe suit? OMG, bring it! 😀
Interesting assessment of What It Take to Be a Man. I assume I should have studied this at some point in my 40+ years, but alas, I’ve quite possibly abused my “privilege” of masculinity by failing on every one of the following com-Man-dments:
#1: Thou shalt not cry (instead: learn to fear your emotions)
#2: Equate “being a girl” with the most awful thing a man could possibly reduce himself to (while he spends an inordinate amount of time acting like a fool trying to impress them)
#3: Whining at a TV screen when the athletic team that plays a sport that I don’t have the physique to play anymore doesn’t do what I want it to.
Pardon me, I’m just trying to build up my Man Shopping List here…
#4: Using assorted machinery like cars to emulate my roaring (since we can’t really do this in a civilized peaceful world, now can we?)
#5: Calling policemen to protect me – oops, I mean “offer assistance” to my man muscles – when I feel threatened.
…and of course various other displays of strength, courage, self-love and empowerment.
I think I want to marry your husband. The Man Act conceals such a fragile little beauty.
Interesting thread!!! Multifaceted topic…
Elsa, somewhere up the thread you posit whether other countries/cultures have embraced (or whatever the correct word might be) “feminized” men or men doing things more commonly associated with female behavior. I’m no anthropologist but I’ve seen more than one Bollywood film in which men wear eyeliner (and it can look extremely sexy IMO); I believe the use of kohl eyeliner in South Asian culture has long, long been “unisex.” It’s not for every guy there, obvs – I had a Pakistani male friend who would have gone probably jumped off a bridge before wearing it! – but it’s one TYPE of a variety of aesthetics. Different strokes and all. (And as a aide note, never taken BCP in my entire life. And I still like an elegant, sensitive type of man. I still think it’s my Aqua Venus and Mars.)
Another example – in Latin culture, a man’s ability to dance is often paramount, PARAMOUNT, to his, shall we say, success with the ladies. And salsa/mambo dancing, the kind I’ve done for years, is hardly what I’d call “macho.” The man leads when a couple is dancing together but both dancers spin off to do their own things, too, and the steps are intricate and require very fine, accurate footwork. The best salsa teacher in NYC, an extremely manly man named Eddie Torres – ain’t nobody ever gonna be mistaking him for a lady – always names Fred Astaire as his absolute idol from early childhood on. Yeah, skinny old Fred Astaire.
Again, interesting topic. I could go on for hours, too but just can’t. Bonne nuit.
Oooh – thought of something else, have to add. I believe that in China (possibly other Asian countries too, not really sure) a man wearing his nails is traditionally considered a desirable thing, a sign of a man who does not need to work with his hands. (*Which takes the discussion in a new direction, that of social status and that dirtiest of dirty words in the U.S., “class”.) Now I’ve never been to China but am in Chinatown NYC quite a bit and have seen this myself so, yeah, another example.
Good one – meant to type “wearing his nails long.” (Most men, and women, do have and wear some kind of fingernail, duh Amanda.) Okay, a sure sign it’s time to sign off now!
Also not a fan of feminized men. But a favorite man is all Leo and fire with Mars in Cancer. That combination, that presence, is really nice.
the world is a stage
Bit of a bumpy ride but Thanks @Elsa for this question!
@curiositina… whew!!!
To me, an Alpha Male isn’t one to repress his emotions. He’s comfortable with them & feels confident enough in his masculinity & his partner to express himself openly. Violence is an aberration on any side of the fence.
& women SHOULD repress their anger (at least the chronic stuff)… or rather… they should MORPH it/ channel it/ convert it, whatever! We know better. We know better ways to deal with this energy, to re-rout it & resolve things in positive ways & it’s up to us to find them. We are gifted with clever in this way =) Women are more than capable of being assertive & feminine at the same time- one need not be sacrificed for the other. Masochistic? Seek Help.
Why are more women than men self mutilating than men? I have no idea.
Why are they Suicidal? I don’t know about over there in the States, but here in Oz it’s men that are still the biggest worry. The statistics in the below state that World Wide, with the exception of China, it’s men that most often take their lives.
Why are more men going to schools & gunning down schools? Because their parents haven’t been good at their job. Because these men have been exposed to around 16,000 TV murders by the age of 18.
Interestingly parents spend 38 minutes on average PER WEEK making meaningful converstaion with their children, but the stats show these parents also spend 31 hours watching the TV themselves.
Interesting…
No, a little balance won’t hurt any of us & neither will freedom of speech & having an opinion *grin*
Do we in Society need to be polarised in order to function? Yes! We need to debate to grow. We need two sides. The trick is being polarised AND harmonious… to work at that harmony together- that’s where the focus needs to sit.
I wish you well on the see saw =)
McKenna- Thank you for reading my posts and your thoughtful comments regarding them. I thought the statistics you listed were interesting. esp. about men committing suicide in other countries. I had heard something about that a long time ago. I agree that we need to debate in order to grow. But I also wonder if harmony should exist in ourselves before we can create it outside of us by working together. Thanks again.
I saw a documentary following taliban fighters some weeks ago, all of them wore eyeliner!and this one guy comed his hair 24/7 .weird.
I have no problems with guy’s wearing make up , well mineral foundation and powder is ok ,not mascara …It’s a little unfair that girl’s only can have a polished and even skintone. I am bi ,mostly attracted to girls ,but if I like a guy , he is atleast 75% alpha male. But he has to smell good , and don’t be oldfashioned. Feminizing men’s personality is wrong. Agree that it’s unnessassary to provoke behavior that’s not natural. We are diffrent ,and that’s ok, it’s great .There is no reason we can not respect those diffrences , and at the same time get eqality. I am a strong feminist ,but at the same time don’t allways support the maleification of women to gain balance. It’s all about the individual…
I think I lost track somewhere in here ,but I think men have to much pressure , ur supposed to be this though , super sweet ,masculine,sensetive gentleman that reads minds and protects his family ,and knows what kind of dress u look great in ect …imagine it being hard to be so scutinized as guy’s are some times
More Margaret Mead:
“Women want mediocre men, and men are working to be as mediocre as possible.”
As a guy, I find it interesting that I have done things to feminize myself. Manscape, body lotion. I found through work I have to be so masculine,tuff,the boss, that it is such a relief to come home to a feminine style. My wife thinks it’s weird but it’s so relaxing to me. I can change quickly if necessary but try not to.
guy to girl