Voice Of Mars: Speaking Of Beta Males – On Feminizing Men

sissification.jpg(FROM 2008) The soldier and I continued to discuss his targeting of a woman he’s interested in.

“You could probably get any woman you wanted if you put your mind to it,” I said.

“The hell! You’re the only woman in the world who wants a man like me. No women are interested in me but you. Women don’t want some man who runs around gonna kick everyone’s ass all the time,” he said. “Women don’t want anything to do with a man like me.”

“Yeah? Well what do they want?”

“I don’t know. They want a man who cries, I guess. They want their men to cry all the time.”

I just stared because I think by and large this is true.

Do you think women try to feminize men? If so then why?

Submit your own open question

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Voice Of Mars: Speaking Of Beta Males – On Feminizing Men — 66 Comments

  1. not necessarily…maybe some do. not me! i think there was a backlash against the whole drum-circle-weepy-men thing from a few years back.

    my husband was explaining this to me recently as he was trying to help me understand the movie “Fight Club” better.

    i don’t know what society at large thinks, but i know what’s attractive to me.

  2. I just stared because I think by and large this is true.

    I think it is accurate to say that people want their partner to do everything they want, like everything they like and so on.

    If so then why?

    Convienience.

    max
    [‘What’s got you rolling on this topic, anyways?’]

  3. [’What’s got you rolling on this topic, anyways?’]

    It’s just another one of the things in my head that has been there for months with the intention to explore. I pulled up the vid from Sept because I am not in position to make anything new right now and then this conversation was from the weekend at some point and I recalled it and it fit the theme.

    But the answer to your question is in the 1st sentence. I have 30 or 40 things I would like to write about (thoroughly) at any given time, with 5-10 of those very important to me, or just highly interesting in my opinion. Thing is there is never enough hours in a day so my sister (she is psychic) was probably right when she said 10 years ago, I would never get all the writing done this life so my kids would write and I imagine I will probably be back to right next life and the one after and whatever until I get this work done.

  4. I have a story that i think suits this topic. There is a man i know who is a Cancer. He was married most of his life to a Leo. At around 40 he had a mid life crisis and left his wife for a heavily aries woman. She is also of a different nationality, that being Korean. Now this man goes around, a man who once stayed home with his children, telling people that women should be submissive, while his Korean aries wife who really wants to be the man wearing the pants is the submissive type.. Talk about hypocrasy… It is so obvious too that there is somthing not quite as it appears. Cancer man with submissive aries woman. now who is femanizing who ?

    • My cousin was attending a meeting of businessmen in South Korea. The question arose, how often do you beat your wife? Some said once a week, others once a month. They asked my cousin, and he replied that in the United States, the wives beat the husbands. No one laughed. They all nodded their heads solemnly.

  5. No, I don’t agree. I don’t think many (most?) women want a man who runs around talking about killing people or kicking everyone’s ass all of the time, sure, I think he’s right there, but I don’t think the opposite of that is a man who cries all of the time, either. I think that another option is a man who handles problems in a way that doesn’t involve violence or threats thereof, and also doesn’t melt down and turn into another baby that the woman then has to take care of.

  6. By the way, I got distracted by my kid and hit “submit” sooner than I should have. I wanted to add that it does sound to me that the Soldier is a lot like the men of my father’s generation where he’s charming in his aggression. So, I didn’t mean to make my comment sound judgmental or negative about the Soldier specifically. I have Libra (times a zillion) and so I needed to clarify that. 😉

  7. I’ve been hit left and right over the past few months with all of these conversations about what men do, what women do, what men and women want, what we think, what we feel. I’m trying to figure out if it’s something in the water. (Actually, it’s not. It’s just the fact that I’m trying to date, and that does more to turn you away from a person and into an “ilk” than anything else.)

    I have no idea what women want or what they do to men.

    But I’ve met no fewer than five single guys over the past month who know much more about women than I do. Maybe they subscribe to a pamphlet or something.

  8. I think women want men who talk, empathize, know what she needs – in other words, men who can be a girlfriend to her. And I’m just learning that it can’t be – at least not for me. I am interested, now, in a man who is a man. He thinks, talks, acts, walks like a man — and while he’s sensitive and sweet and thoughtful and a good listener – I’m learning to understand his man mind and not expect him to be another girlfriend to me.

    A friend recently, brilliantly said to me on the subject of understanding men, “It’s so complex because it’s just so simple.”

    He wasn’t putting men down (he’s a man!) But he was saying, men’s needs are simple, and I find that complicated! (I’m a woman!)

  9. I’ve got to disagree here as well — while there may be women who want their man to be their “best (girl-like) friend,” I think there are many, many women who appreciate men as they are…inherently male. Personally, I prefer a man who isn’t at either extreme — too aggressive, and I tend to shy away (self-protection) but too passive and I know I’d have a tendency to run the poor man over, and that wouldn’t work well for a long-term relationship.

  10. I agree with Max. People just want their partner to do their bidding–whether it’s emotional response or whatever. Up until about 3 days ago I lamented the fact that I get *more* emotional support in life from my best friend than my SO.

    DiNG…it’s not more, just different. For example I was feeling really down, and my SO was trying to talk to me, trying to figure out what was going on with me and I suddenly realized: I’m actually really annoyed with you asking me all these goddamn questions! How stupid and crazy is that?

    So he said “I’m just going to go for a walk for a little while and leave you alone, okay?”

    I WAS SO HAPPY. I calmed down immediately. I think I’ve finally figured it out: I’m definitely going to get a different kind of relationship…not only that but when people talk about romantic relationships (whether they are opposite sex, same sex or not–just romantic straight up) they fail to include this little detail called…domesticity!

    It’s one thing for me to go for a coffee with my best friend and talk about things, it’s quite another to do it with a person who I live with day in and day out.

  11. Fascinating…. I think humans are to variable in there temperament and culture to say men want this women want that. Each individual will look for what works for them….

    I like strong women, who know who they are, and what they want. A woman that will dig a hole and shit in the woods.

  12. I have to say….I am just getting back my ability to shed tears after 25 years of suppression…. I don’t really ever cry around anyone in public but when I am alone, or listening to music that moves me, or overwhelmed with sadness or grief it is a tremendous gift to shed tears… If you don’t process your grief and release it, it will follow you around everywhere you go…. I almost wish I could do it in front of people. There is nothing wrong with being vulnerable, in the right setting…. There is great strength in vulnerability!

  13. uhm… why? balance is good. do you really want an excess of yin?

    it’s nice if a man admits he actually has feelings, but that’s about all i think i need. as long as he can respect mine.

  14. Oh and one other thing to keep in mind. These are bits of conversation taken out of context. I am sure if I were to ask the soldier to elaborate he would, except I didn’t because we discuss this so much I know what he is talking out – the ins and outs.

  15. Amber – I don’t remember ever calling the soldier “evolved” let alone “super-evolved”. Matter of fact I don’t think I have ever called anyone “evolved” in my life as I would have no way of making that kind of judgment and don’t think in those terms.

    Further, you mentioned the 1950’s which from the soldier’s perspective is “modern times”. The era that resonates with him is much, MUCH further back.

    As for his language setting you off, I am sure he would not care… matter of fact it would please him so all you can really do is be yourself and let him do same. If the man wants to be a “Neanderthal” so be it. I wouldn’t change a hair on his head and I mean NOT ONE hair on his head.

    Last, I would point out that I am an astrologer which is easily as off putting to plenty.

  16. I find your solder fascinating Elsa, someone I can learn things from…. I have not been reading your blog long enough to have a good feel for what he’s like…. regardless it’s awesome that you guys found each other…

  17. oh GOD, copperweaver, I respect your ability to share your relationship preferences but to me true love means never, EVER having to “shit in the woods.” ::shiver::

  18. I don’t really want my partners to be anything but healthy. If there’s something out of whack, either male or female-type energy, I’ll bring it up, but I don’t try to change people.

    It makes for kind of a tough situation sometimes. For example I was trying to work out a polyamorous relationship between my current bf and one of my exes (not the ex-fiance), because one is a little too guy-oriented for a relationship, and one is a little too dependent right now for a *healthy* relationship.

    So I’m thinking “OK, instead of asking you guys to change yourselves for me, I’ll have you BOTH! And then we all get what we want!”

    You can imagine how that went over. They are both Leo/Cap/Scorp types.

    And I’m Libra, always looking for a balance and pleasing no one. LOL!

  19. It’s just another one of the things in my head that has been there for months with the intention to explore.

    Ok; I was wondering where the beta male part came in.

    not only that but when people talk about romantic relationships (whether they are opposite sex, same sex or not–just romantic straight up) they fail to include this little detail called…domesticity!

    It was pointed out somewhere (where?) that women tend to offer support and men tend to want to help/solve problems. That is, the men want to make the problem go away. Women do not perceive this as supportive.

    max
    [‘Whee.’]

  20. I don’t know that women literally want men to cry, but certainly they can find confident men a bit scary and try to put them in a box, unless they’re confident themselves. Maybe that’s what your soldier’s getting at. But I think genuinely confident men (of whom there aren’t that many) ARE a bit scary. They can’t be controlled, they are a large presence, they growl! But would you want it any other way? 🙂

  21. Actually you’re right, DR. What he said specifically was that women did not like arrogant men. I forgot that line:

    “Women don’t like arrogant men. Women don’t want some man who runs around gonna kick everyone’s ass all the time,” he said. “Women don’t want anything to do with a man like me.”

    And it is my opinion that women really do get a man and first thing they set out to do is emasculate them… and the men allow it.

    As to your specific question – hell no, I don’t want a man I can control. I am repulsed by a spineless woman much less a spineless man.

  22. I’m just very happy knowing the two of you live in the same house now and can enjoy hanging out together . . . :::big grin:::

    the rest is better much beside the point. 🙂

  23. I wouldn’t date an overly macho man. I know a lot of women who love that, but it just doesn’t do anything for me. I like a really smart man, like a geek. Soldiers are nice, and some macho types are great people who I like to have around, be friends with, but I want a geek. Actually, I have a geek. 🙂

  24. I guess the thing that jumps out at me about the whole thing is the implication that men and masculine characteristics are strong and that women and feminine characteristics are weak. Thus, for a man to display traditionally feminine qualities makes them weak or sissies. For me it speaks much more about how our society still views women…

  25. I know for me, it took me a long time to accept that my husband is just not as out-in-the-open emotional as I am (he’s an Aquarius Sun and Venus).
    But I realized one day that if both of us were this way, it would be just pure chaos. I noticed that when I stopped expecting him to be more emotional and sensitive…he gave it more freely.
    And I also realized that my wanting to sissify him had nothing to do with him, but everything to do with myself and my insecurities.
    Thank God those days are over. I’m a true believer now that good love is freedom to be yourself.

  26. eh. why would i want to emasculate a man?
    i just want my aries to be respected. but i wouldn’t want a guy who couldn’t hold his own. who would let anyone “emasculate” him.

    see, but i think that might be mars seventh talking. maybe.

  27. I see many people in relationships who wish to “change the other” in some way. Just think of it; a person changing due to another persons requirements in relations. The relationship becoming dependant on some kind of behavioural or affective adaptation.

    I think there are some women who try to feminize men, its perhaps their subconscious desire for Daddy to change, to suit them, to validate them,to show they are important etc. Its not just femminizing though. There is a whole spectrum of Change Other topics and contracts. Hell, I once knew a guy who was cajoled into wearing a tool belt and becoming a handyman man. It was the image of a man that the woman had in her mind that was perfect for her.

    kingsley

  28. A woman simply needs a man who cares about the way she feels.

    This simple requirement is difficult for a man to fulfill, because (1) he cares more about how she looks and (2) he doesn’t know why her feelings are so important.

    So a smart man lies. He says (1) you’ll always be the most beautiful woman I’ve ever known and (2) yes Honey I understand exactly how you feel.

    This same smart man gets good sex in return.

    So, is it really so hard for a man to get good sex with his woman? All he has to do, is say the above (1) and (2).

    Ha. You’d have to pay a guy like Max cold hard cash and a bonus to hear those words. They won’t do it, yet they will lie through their teeth at anything else they please that suits their purpose and ups their ego.

    Elsa, am I right or not?

  29. “Elsa, am I right or not?”

    TiaNYC – No, I don’t agree. A man might a some woman to perform with those techniques but I don’t know that good sex can be performed.

  30. Ha. You’d have to pay a guy like Max cold hard cash and a bonus to hear those words.

    Untrue. Since I said them truthfully to someone many many times.

    They won’t do it, yet they will lie through their teeth at anything else they please that suits their purpose and ups their ego.

    Dear Elsa, my response to this has been truncated due to wanting to respect your boundaries on behaviour on this blog.

    This same smart man gets good sex in return.

    Smart in this instance is apparently equivalent to ‘scumbag’.

    max
    [‘BTW: project much?’]

  31. Wimpy men have inherent psychological/emotional problems, as do overly aggressive men. Speaking of aggression, killing for the fun of it seems to inhabit the male domain. Wars are for fun and profit. I don’t respect people who kill or maim or torture or harm. I don’t think it’s sexy. In the end, we all go to a place where there are no limits, and all this earthly ephemera is forgotten. Why not rise above the brainwashing while in the physical body, and just be a good person?

  32. “Women don’t like arrogant men”.

    Hahahahhaha, they’re the only kind me and my friend Taylor like. If you don’t think you’re any good why would I? I want a guy who knows what he can do and wants to show me. (and you don’t have ot be noisily arrogant, but well, its fun to see y’know? bonus points to any guy who’ll throw me over their shoulder . . )

    I think there’s a fair share of men who aren’t growing up, as well as the one’s being emasculated. In fact that might be why it’s so easy to emasculate some men. I don’t want to be your mom.

  33. hmm interesting Wyrdling. i am a fire air girl too and think that i process things differently than some other women too. I remember reading on this blog somwhere about how you can tell what a relationship will be like with someone within the first two minutes of meeting them. Now I’m sure most of us gal want to spend more time then that getting to know our one and only before, how should I say “hitting the sack”, but I have to agree that this has been true for me. So I also agree with Elsa in this blog as she says women do not want arrogant men. There is a difference between arrogance and emasculating. ALthough there may be some arrogance in trying to change the opposite sex? I don’t think many like arrogance in general, wether it comes from men or women, but the label arrogant can sometimes cover up the natural femininity of men. “In the first two minutes of the occasion, he had his arm around me and the other one on my leg, trying to put me legs accross his lap.” Ok well men and women do both want it, but it is this tendancey for men to appear to want it more at times that can lead them to seeming arrogant. I really do believe that eveyone has both masculinity and femininity, so it would be hard for me to tell if I were emasculating someone or if that is just the way they were by nature. BUt thank you for bringing this to light as I have at times thought this and so maybe have projected this on to the other without realizing. I guess I should mention he was an Aries, and I don’t want to offend but I think this sign is prone. And also prone to shallowness. ( I say this because mr. arrogent dumped me as soon as i hit a rough patch) I remember thinking not sure if i said out loud, what the hell do you think your doing. This is the first god damn date, for Christ sakes!!!

  34. doublecappy – that comes from me… I have written or said that many times (once recently) but say so much I have no idea when or where. 😛

  35. “I also agree with Elsa in this blog as she says women do not want arrogant men.”

    I did not say that – he said that. I have said many times I loooove arrogant men and have no attraction whatsoever to a man who does not crow and stuff. Venus in Leo for Godsakes – I want a peacock!

  36. double cappy..
    I can tell you exactly where it is. It is in the april 11th blog. Soory if that is too outdated for you, i can hardly keep up with all the thoughts.

  37. i’ve known a man or two who could see my feelings better than i could (aquarius moon.) i certainly don’t think they’re incapable of understanding and working with feelings… they just do it differently.

    i tend to be more comfortable with the way men process such things anyway. not sure why, but as a girl composed mostly of fire and air i guess i’m not as yin as many women.

  38. I’m curious where on the blog it was said/discussed that the first two minutes of meeting someone can dictate what the relationship will be like . . .

  39. Oh, weird. Thanks Des – I found the April 11 post, and I even commented on it. I wrote about wishing I could find someone I can “good fight” with (teasing, etc…) and I did. What do you know. You get what you wish for here on Elsa’s blog.

    🙂

    At any rate, I’d love to hear more on this . . . Elsa? Interesting about the first two minutes theory.

  40. Elsa: Not addressing anyone in particular. I think it’s more of an undertone that pervades the issue — the implication is that men and women are inherently separate and therefore unequal rather than owning the reality that each of us have a different balance of masculine and feminine energies and that they’re both valuable. As I mentioned, I’m not trying to call out anyone in particular, I think it’s more of a common undertone that we’re not always aware of.

  41. men and women are inherently separate and therefore unequal

    They most certainly are! Astute observation on your part 😀

    owning the reality that each of us have a different balance of masculine and feminine energies

    Your perceived reality is the grand delusion of modern society.

    Not addressing anyone in particular.

    Interesting.

  42. To answer the Soilder.. “Who wants a man who goes around wanting to kick everyones ass?” :

    I guess that women that are from strong families, who have experienced a lot and become so independent and strong that they feel a sensitive man who chooses to solve everything with a peaceful manner is just not strong enough to overpower them.

    Speaking of myself, and the circle of girlfriends i have, none of us want a man who is submissive or feminine in his reactions. But this is just in theory!!! Deep down inside, im sick of men who cant express their feelings in a proper way, other than being loud, forceful, and dominant.

    I want a dominant man, but im torn between what i want and what is good for me. The men ive been attracted to, have been the strict opposite of the men in my life that i was brought up with. My father is scorpio, brother is scorpio, me and my brother are scorpio moon. My entire life has been a struggle for power and dominance!

    So I love brown-eyed middle-eastern men who make me feel less of a man, when my own arabic angry nature kicks in, when they can overpower me. But i know that a relationship like that is not going to satisfy me, because im attracted to the calm and sweet type of men who can teach me to be less angry and not walk around wanting to kick peoples ass myself.

    Id rather have him appearing as a machine but deep down being a soft and loving guy 🙂

  43. I can only speak for myself, so I have to say, I DO NOT want a feminine man as a romantic partner. (As friends is another story.) I’ve said for years that I want “an intelligent cave man”. I like strong, arrogant, ballsy men. And they HAVE TO BE smart. If I wanted someone feminine, I’d date women.

  44. By the way, Elsa, I´m kind of scared but happy at the same time about everything I read about the Soldier. (i just started reading your blog a week ago) I think, or i fear, that i might be the female astrological version of him! Haha!

    Sun in Taurus, Moon inScorpio, Venus in Gemini, Mars in Cancer.

    Elsa you´re the answer, i have to find the male version of you and ill be happy. hahaha:D

  45. “I can only speak for myself, so I have to say, I DO NOT want a feminine man as a romantic partner. (As friends is another story.) I’ve said for years that I want “an intelligent cave man”. I like strong, arrogant, ballsy men. And they HAVE TO BE smart. If I wanted someone feminine, I’d date women.”

    Me too, lilly ! I’m a Sun Libra, Moon Capricorn, which makes me quite a cavewoman in many ways. In order to be an equal companion completing me, and not totally overpowered by me a man really has to have these caveman qualities.

  46. Sometimes I think of all the things women have done to men and it makes me very unhappy about being a woman.

    I think people are people and shouldn’t be forced out of it. There should be space in the world for guys to be just guys, but some people just don’t fit their gender roles sometimes and shouldn’t be excessively penalized for it.
    (Not that saying “shouldn’t” means anything just…ah, well. Gender issues. pft.)

  47. I think women want men to change sometimes because almost everyone tends to think that the way they do things is the right way. Most people don’t even notice that they’re thinking that way. So they say to guys “can’t you do this the right way? More like a woman would do it?”

    Also, some women have never been around men a lot, or never bothered to consider the male perspective. Some women are scared of men.

    Ok, I’ll quit now.

  48. So many good comments. For me my venus is in my 11th house, so first and foremost you gotta be my friend and yes that includes getting in the foxhole with me. Way, way back in an earlier time in my life I too drove truck, and trust me back then there where very, very, few women in that profession. I prefer the simple, straight-forward, to the point of the male emotional makeup. Say what you mean, mean what you say. Sun and mercury in Sagitarius, Just give me the truth and give it to me straight, men seem to be able to do that. So give it to me straight, and if I like it, I will then let you in the foxhole with me. All the relationships in my life that have meant something to me, I liked first.

    It baffles me that some women are in relationships with men that they don’t “like” and it seems that these are the women who try to change and feminize and then complain that their man is an ass.

  49. “Me too, lilly ! I’m a Sun Libra, Moon Capricorn, which makes me quite a cavewoman in many ways. In order to be an equal companion completing me, and not totally overpowered by me a man really has to have these caveman qualities.”

    Candela, I’m Sun Aries, Moon Libra 😉 Could be because we have strong Cardinal “signatures”…I’m way too aggressive for the feminine-type man 😀

  50. Depends on your personality. I have nothing in common with macho, manly men, so I avoid them and vice versa. So yeah, I prefer “betas” because I can actually have conversations with them about stuff I find interesting, and betas don’t really want me to fit into a stereotypical female behavior box either. I’m really borderline on the male/female scale (more of a male personality, but female socialization and my interests), so I’d rather deal with someone else on the border too. Though I like what luci said 🙂

    And to be honest, dominating men scare me. I don’t know if some of them are going to take it out on me someday. Some of them I’m pretty sure won’t, but other people I know, well… I am very leery of them and can’t figure out how they ever got partnered. They probably both have Mars/Saturn. I tend to think anyone with that much aggression and a fierce desire to dominate someone, well…I’d be first in line to get squashed.

  51. I don’t think being kind, considerate or poetic makes a man feminised, what feminises him is having these qualities WITHOUT the manliness. He can be a fierce protector, loyal to his family, and still be sensitive enough to know when you need a cup of tea and a hug. Just makes ’em more manly and sexy IMO.

  52. I’m surprised I never commented on the first round! How odd…
    Anyway, a few things grabbed my attention and then there’s a couple-a thoughts thrown in:

    A few people said things on a similar vein, but this one from DR stuck out: “But I think genuinely confident men … ARE a bit scary. They can’t be controlled, they are a large presence, they growl! But would you want it any other way?”
    No, I wouldn’t want it any other way. I can’t be controlled, I’m a large presence, I growl, and I need someone who can keep up! Genuinely confident people (not just men) don’t scare me in the least; instead, they make me sit up and take note. In fact, usually I will go out of my way to sidle in and throw up a challenge just to see what their mettle is made of. *sly grin*

    “I don’t respect people who kill or maim or torture or harm. I don’t think it’s sexy.”
    Disturbingly (to some), I do. Not the serial killer, I-do-this-for-fun type, but I’m perfectly willing to get physical in defense of my clan and I cannot be with someone who is too squeamish to even think about that.

    So, for my 2¢:
    When I was younger, I was convinced that I wanted a man who presented no challenge whatsoever. Not necessarily someone with no opinions or a “feminized” man, but someone who was happy to let me run the show my way, be a good little puppy, and not pee on the carpet. After being with about six or so men just like that, I was extremely, extremely bored. So I revised what I wanted: a challenge. And, hoo boy! *fans self* YESH. Exactly what I needed.
    Being with puppies I could steamroll wasn’t much fun, nor did it give me the potential to learn and grow. But being with someone I could push against, who would push back, that’s where the growth came in — expanding and challenging and wonderful!
    So perhaps women that want beta males are alphas who don’t want their rule challenged or betas who don’t want to be steamrolled themselves?

  53. I think the Soldier is strong and loving at the same time, “happy wife, happy life.” I think men must be allowed to cry, and there is a difference between a man who cries and a cry baby who hasn’t courage.
    I think the question for Elsa is are masculine and feminine qualities/stereotypical qualities endemic to the world like yin/yang? Is one person not a mix of these two? What does the Soldier think is a mix that makes the strong man?

    I’ve seen an arrogant man and a confident one, and believe me, women literally drop their drawers in front of him. A woman sat down with him while he was eating alone and got into a conversation and he took her home that night.

    Women do want strong, confident men, they just want to change them to suit their needs.

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