Vicious People, Who Claim To Be Innocent

This is a difficult topic for me to write about. I don’t really understand it so I’m going to try to put this out here in the hopes someone can shed some light on this.

The other challenge is that this type behavior is easy to project and hard (for me) to define. I’m talking about a narrow band of people here, but depending on a person’s perception, you can accuse almost anyone of this. I guess it’s up the the reader to be discerning.

This kind of person acts against another in a way that is egregious. I am not talking about perceived insensitivity between two people or miscommunication. I’m talking about a person who truly launches a vicious attack against another and then pretends (to themselves or others) that they’ve done nothing wrong. They may actually be convinced of this, I don’t know.

I was talking to satori about this yesterday and she ties it to narcissism. satori knows a lot more about narcissism than I do. She’s studied it in depth. I tend to give credence to whatever she says on this topic, but I did not leave the conversation with the understanding I’m looking for so I’m posting this.

It’s worth noting that satori herself, once launched a vicious attack against someone; her Scorpio Mars was unleashed. She may or may not have been justified but what she did not do is pretend to be innocent or inert, innocent, impotent, after the fact and I respect her for that.

In an attempt to be clear here, let me give you a hypothetical example. Let’s say a man beats his wife. He clearly beats her and when she finally manages to leave him, he presents himself as confused as to why this happened.

What is it? What do you know about it? Can you add the astrology?

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Vicious People, Who Claim To Be Innocent — 64 Comments

  1. Hmm. This post made me look up my stepfather…

    Mars in Scorpio. Cancer stellium with sun and Venus @ 4 degrees, mercury and Uranus. Moon @ 10 Leo and pluto @ 19.

    Nodding. Sounds like him. As result, when he screws up, or feels “unloved” (real or imagined), the rage and vengeance he projects are amazing. Both direct, and subversive.

    Everyone is always screwing HIM over.

  2. maybe it’s the Anima/Animus which is outlined,and with good examples, at this website:
    wwws2.cnr.edu/home/bmcmanus/anima.html

  3. I believe narcissistic personality disorder might be the culprit for this behavior if it is very extreme and pathological. My father put guns to our heads as children. Everyone saw it but he pretends it didn’t happen. I think it’s a pathology. I don’t think healthy people exhibit this kind of behavior. The grand majority of people can feel empathy to varying degrees and can take blame and responsibility for their actions. There is a small sector of people that will fly into a rage when confronted with the hurt they have caused or they will fall out crying on the floor and play victim when confronted with their terrible actions. They will also resort to extreme gaslighting. I don’t think you can see this in a chart because it’s a mental illness per se. I grew up watching this type of behavior. Severe abuse and other transgressions followed by confusion and outright denial and gaslighting by the perpetrator.

  4. BurnedBridge, that’s interesting too, and sort in line with, satori’s thinking. The person is totally impaired.

    I am really glad for this conversation. Clearly, y’all can identify the behavior I’m referencing. The gun to the head, followed by “what did I do?”. Gah.

  5. My father’s Mars is in Scorpio trining Pluto….but I have experienced 99% of the Mars in Scorpio people I know take full responsibility for any actions just like any other human being. In my father’s case, I don’t believe it to be his Mars placement, I just believe him to be really ill. His Mars could be in Pisces and he would probably be the same way.

  6. I knew men who might throw things (ie:a basketball) at a woman, and then claim they were joking or it wasn’t supposed to hit her. Maybe they were dating, maybe they weren’t.

    For me, I think this is a stellium in the 12th – if the sun +other planets are buried your ego does things you’re not conscious of.

    perhaps the violence is another chart factor, squaring/opposing the stellium

  7. Just to throw this out here, it’s like a denial of cause and effect. But I am not sure it’s always unconscious. Surely some of these (maybe most of them) would have the capacity to see that their actions have caused the effect but they choose not to.

    satori also went into what people like this do when they are called out. You guys seem to know a lot about this, so if you want to address that as well, it would be interesting! 🙂

  8. yep, that’s my dad…smh…we just steer clear of him. His latest cry now is “Why don’t my children like me?” My sister and I just stare in disbelief. I’ve only one other person that exhibit this kind of behavioral mechanism during my lifetime. So it is a very small group of people like you said Elsa. But I can see people projecting this all over the place…lol. I hope that doesn’t happen.

  9. Just hanging out to read the comments because I don’t get it either. Actually, I’m introspecting because I really hope I don’t do this. I don’t think I do..but, Neptune, you know. I was “the victim” for a long time. But, I’ve always owned up to anything purposely hurtful I’ve done regardless of whether it was justified. No, I don’t think I do this.

    ..k, back to pondering.

  10. My father is conscious of what he’s doing on the surface. I know this because he will go back and cover his tracks. I’ve also seen him leave incriminating evidence of affairs and such so my mother can find it . It’s almost like he baits you on purpose so you can confront him so he can rage. This is his cycle. Kind of like those people that commit crimes just so they can get their face on camera. The end goal is the camera time and publicity and the crime is the means to getting the attention. Once you discern the cycle, it’s very predictable. My father has even gone so far as to have an affair with my aunt’s next door neighbor, knowing he will be seen. My aunt tells my mom, she confronts, he rolls around enraged on the floor screaming about him being a victim. It’s an extremely predictable pattern. They can be very danderous when being called out though. That’s where the violence and gaslighting might come in. This is why we steer clear. The situation is too dangerous to engage on any level. You kinda just have to back away.

  11. My sweet baby has a Scorpio moon which I usually am wary of in people but she comes from a loving and supportive family so hopefully it’s more the best attributes of this moon.

    I had a friend from the spiritual/new age community who presented herself as “sensing” things, after I told her I was pregnant her vindictive, jealous side was activated. She said something very damaging about my ability to be a good mother and used someone else to hide behind so as not to be the one responsible for saying it ( long story, won’t bore you with it)
    I think she honestly didn’t think she did anything wrong like everything she does is with pure and loving intentions and she really believes that, she thought she was helping me when really she knew where my weakness was and purposely hurt me.
    Like the previous person mentioned I think it’s narcissism and jealously but the emotion isn’t identified within themselves a jealousy, instead they believe it’s the other person theyre jealous of at fault for how they feel.

  12. Oh I read the thread, that is a little different than what I thought but that’s also extreme cases of a mental illness it seems? My grandmother is like this, she is very narcissistic and won’t take responsibility for the abuse of my father as she doesn’t see her fault but also can’t help herself with her extreme behavior

  13. I lived with a narcissist for eight years and experienced this a lot. It can really mess with the minds of those around them.
    These people can not fathom compassion from others. They trust noone and see any form of kindness as weakness. They live in absolute fear of being found out. They have no sense of self.
    I think the best way to deal with these people is to GET AWAY.
    They have no boundries other than those that will preserve their image in their own minds and in others they feel are in power.
    And that’s what it’s all about for them: PRESERVING AN IMAGE.
    This person has a sun pluto conjunction square mars. Not sure about the houses (no birth time). But I have a feeling the 12th house is involved.

  14. I don’t know much about the pathological narcissists, but I’ve seen some people who do this sort of thing Elsa has described. It seems these folks just don’t think or understand that they did anything wrong to the injured party. They find it reasonable to hit or attack someone if they are angry or insulted, and they are genuinely surprised that people don’t see things the same way!

    And when they are called out, they either feign ignorance or are truly unaware of the logic or sequence of their actions, then fly into a rage at the indignation of being accused of doing something wrong. Some will deny it vehemently, while others side-step the issue and just rage about non-related matters and drag up old personal disagreements to distract everyone. And even when presented with evidence or a whole group of people who can point to their behavior, they find a way to twist the situation. You just can’t make them see the error of their ways. They think and feel they are fully justified in their behavior. And there isn’t much you can do but walk away.

  15. I was just looking at my stepson’s mother’s birth chart trying to figure her out because she does this.
    She’s ditched out on her son (and her other children and husbands/boyfriends) numerous times because of men. She behaves extremely erratically but when she’s called out on it, she plays the victim and says we’re trying to keep her from seeing her son. We actually moved to the state she was living in so her son could be closer to her and a few years later, she moves again.
    Because we’re holding her to a custody agreement, she doesn’t like it and calls us controlling.

    She has some Scorpio (venus conjunct jupiter), but it’s not poorly aspected. She has Sun/Pluto conjunct in Virgo and Merc/Mars conjunct in Virgo.
    Her Gemini moon is square one of these configurations (don’t know birth time.)

    Her social persona is sunshine and flowers and love and peace (she can be quite charming) until she is called out for behaving badly/neglectfully and then she turns into a monster.

  16. I am going through this with a co-worker, who has been harassing me at work now for a year. I think you can look at this from two places. 1) people like this are sociopaths (which ties with narcissistic personality disorder in some ways); and 2) psychic vampires – they feed off the upsetting energy they create. I have not figured out how to put a stop to it, and the mgt. is terrified of her. There are couple of books out, called The Sociopath Next Door, and People of the Lie. I have read that with a sociopath, their brains don’t develop normally, and they have problems processing emotions. So they never develop a conscience. They don’t have emotional connections with other people, and boredom is a real problem with them, because they don’t think about relationships with people, like most people do. So they play vicious games to alleviate boredom and feel empowered. Therapy does not work on them, and there doesn’t seem to be a cure.

  17. Thanks for this post, Elsa! ((0:

    It’s what you say: denial of cause and effect. I am sure it’s linked to narcissism. And I often felt it’s conscious. Beyond all the psychology, it’s simply a test, how you will react. If you are irritated and unsure, you will get the next load. Until you set a limit. if you don’t stick to it and are quick on your feet to defend it, it will go further and further. It’s like playing with a mean 4 year old. Very exhausting. At least. It’s Clockwork orange!

    • I think it’s conscious too, in most cases, but I also think some like this are so detached from reality, the don’t see the level of malevolence.

      In other words, they know they did something wrong but don’t want to look at it. That’s one thing. But separate and away from that, they may have no clue just how horrendous they are, and the depth of the impact they have on others. This is the impairment. It’s like seeing 6 inches in front of your face, not realize what all is out there and the profound problems that you cause others.

  18. There’s another subset of this type out there. The “morally justified looter”. This person has determined that they want what you’ve got (your man, your money, your property, your ‘standing’/reputation, or so forth).

    But they would rather not go to jail or experience shunning or risk some other penalty for out and out stealing. So what’s to be done?

    Simple. Launch a cunning campaign within the mutual peer group/community whereby you salt the earth with myriad “concerns” and “grievances”…take the high road as to how, even in the face of the many hurts and slights you’ve suffered you still stick around to “help”.

    Slowly co-opt your target’s support network into a collusion of how every normal or routine action of the target is in fact evidence of their dysfunction, shortcomings and general awfulness.

    Position your continued interaction and face to face “niceness” as evidence of your deep compassion and big picture desire to support and heal the terrible, awful target.

    Then, when you’ve cased the joint and marked out all you think you can get away with; Swoop and grab! Knowing that you will be directly aided and abetted by the peer group/community as “doing what you had to do” and/or “who could blame him/her after all s/he’s been through?” Hell, if well enough played, you can even pull the gloves off at that point and really enjoy a public one-two punch of the target and vilify them directly to their face.

    This type of vicious person incorporates many of the traits others have described above, but are leveraging them toward a predefined agenda. They may believe their own bullsh*t on some level, but they are under no illusion that they are dishonestly taking something that isn’t theirs-stealing/looting. I think sometimes that dis-ease spurs them to even greater viciousness.

  19. Well I have tons of experience with this as the receiver of the violence. I’ve been gossiped about, struck at by groups of Mean Girls in school and at work, had people turn on me, been broken in half by court actions that were illegal, you name it basically.

    But I have only done it once. I did a truly vicious, unhinged thing in a fit of raw uncharacteristic rage when I was in the midst of some of the worst days of my life. I never pretended it was not vicious and I never pretended it was not foolish. I was ready to fucking *fight*. Right there, right then.

    I really felt that at that moment I had a right to my rage; a right to fight back and an imperative to make it known that I was not powerless and I would not forgive.

    It’s the only time I’ve ever done something like that and I am still not sorry. I still don’t think I was wrong. And at that point…I mean it was just the wrong year, month, day and time to fuck with me. I had endured protracted, subtle and covert attacks from this person — and lots of other people in my life — for so long. I was * so sick of it* at that point.

    And I was in slash and burn mode. I had stuck with so many damaging relationships with people who claimed to be my real true longtime friends. And one by one, they turned out to be utter pricks.

    I scared the hell out of myself. And I’m sure I scared the hell out of her. And the reason it was so scary was because as the victim of this stuff you get used to trusting ultimate justice instead of gearing yourself up for revenge. My karma was wide open at that point and it made me miserable, so I plan on and hope I am never in that position again.

  20. this is a ramble …

    BB wrote: “There is a small sector of people that will fly into a rage when confronted with the hurt they have caused or they will fall out crying on the floor and play victim when confronted with their terrible actions. They will also resort to extreme gaslighting. I don’t think you can see this in a chart because it’s a mental illness per se…”

    This is a really difficult and important issue to discuss. I’m not sure I can express my experience with it but here goes. I think this is an issue I am uncovering and learning to deal with in myself. My Scorpio stellium including Chiron resides in the 10H and squares Mars-Saturn and Pluto in the 7th and 8th. With so much tension there it’s a case of built up rage that won’t allow a little bit of blow, so the rage comes out volcanic.

    I’ve covered-up the rage over the decades and then became very ill five years ago …recovering now I see how giving up the ‘claim to be innocent or confused’ is part of the hard work of becoming real. Is this narcissistic? Probably. A mental illness per se? Probably. The condition is not static and disclosure is part of the solution, and acting different the way through. Astrologically, the tight aspects make for no way out, but through. Mostly, I have hurt myself, but the marriage I have now is holding space for me to fess up and grow. Being called on my crap by someone intimately close to me, Pluto-Uranus is forcing this thing, and here you posit something that allows an angle on my revolution. Scorpio keeps secrets very well, especially from ourselves. I think, this is a Thanks, Elsa et. al. awkward and scary.

  21. My stepdad goes through the same pattern. Drives family away with violence and gas lighting, lies and broken promises. He then tells the rest of his circle how horribly he has been wronged, to garner victim sympathy.

    I agree that it is a psychological disorder, and placements do not make the disorder, alone. His mother was the same way, it is how he was raised, and it only gets worse as he gets older.

    He has done some awful, selfish stuff. I think the closer to “final reckoning” they get, the more outrageous the behavior.

  22. What about those of us who did take responsibility, but were blasted for that as well? I’m not being mean – truly – I’m asking sincerely. I literally felt like I was losing my mind, I admitted to one person how I was feeling – and anyone who has been there would understand what I was feeling (I hadn’t seen it, if they had left me a caring response, I was wanting to die and was climbing the walls).

    Is it possible to be able to take responsibility, and yet also let the other person know that they don’t know me? I mean, if they’re assuming all sorts of nasty things? I don’t even know if this will go through – I tried to apologize, and then got my feelings hurt again. I’m not even looking to come back here now – I don’t know if I ever will – I just lurk because I miss a few people, and because of the good advice given here (and for free – that has always been appreciated, because I know that it’s part of what provides for your family). I don’t gaslight, and I also know what I was going through at the time – I wasn’t handling stress well at all, and am wary of still being on shaky ground in that way. I was scared then, and at times, I’m still scared, but I’m holding in there. Whether or not that’s a good thing in the long run, remains to be seen.

    I’ve been told by someone that I’m delusional, when it comes to my defending myself against something that really happened (concerning her fiance). She knows it happened, because he finally came out with it, and hit on me more than once, but now that they’re getting married, I’m suddenly delusional, and he didn’t do a thing wrong (or if he did, then it was because he was drunk, he isn’t a bad guy, I am for not trusting him). I get what you’re saying: I don’t want to be around him, because I don’t trust him. he has caused me a lot of pain, so much pain, and continues to do so in this manner, only with his now-fiance on board. I’m the one with the problem, because I don’t forgive (he has caused me trouble *every time*). I’m the one who was mistaken, even though I wasn’t and I hated his guts for what he tried to do to *her*, and my relationship with her. I take responsibility, he doesn’t. I’ve had a few people royally screw me over, but I’ve also gained a strong group of friends, that I had trouble letting in for a while, but now? I’m firmly in their corners, and they’re firmly in mine. As much as I’ve hated the past couple of years, it strengthened my relationships with these people.

    The astrology: Saturn in the 12th, hitting my Jupiter, Pluto, saturn t-square in cardinal signs. Pluto creating a grand cross, from my third house as it transits. Neptune squaring my Moon/Venus/Nodes. I like Saturn opposing my Sun – it feels good. I have mars in Pisces and an Aries Sun: I take responsibility. that’s a big part of my depression problem, actually: it would be so much easier to just blame others, but the scariest thing for me, was feeling like I was losing my mind, and surrounded by death. gaslighting by one person, helped to get me there, and I was angry at myself and them. I’ve been angry for over two years now.

    this comment is way too long. sorry. I’m scared to post it, because I just don’t want to take the chance on starting anything, but I also hate miscommunication, and I do have a problem with someone thinking that I was deliberately out to get them when I wasn’t – I would make it known if I were, because I can’t hide my anger. I’ve never been able to.

  23. I wonder if this has anything to do with being a victim as a child. You get set in the mold and the thinking of being a victim and the violence (psychological or physical) is such a normal way of interacting that when anyone calls you on your behavior your victimhood comes out to play as it were.

    You know, a situation where such behavior has become normalized to this person’s life. But they carry their own self-image of a victim as a child and they never dump it as they grow up (very common in abuse situations). I don’t want to excuse such behavior but it strikes me as a serious mental health issue more than anything else.

  24. that was great, Angela. At a certain point, I personally think that the most important thing to know is how to “spot ’em”… so you can limit your exposure. I really do think that limiting your exposure is probably the best action to take. there is no other action I’ve seen to be of any use in the long term. CP Griffin’s post is a good explanation of why it useless to try to talk about it in the bigger world, either. Many people are only interested in reality when it directly affects them (the “well, he didn’t rape ME” line of reasoning, a real head-scratcher).

    “If I ever kill you, you’ll be awake, you’ll be facing me, and you’ll be armed.”
    –Mal, “Firefly”

  25. Hi folks,
    Anyone interested how you may DEAL with such a person? Read Wendy Behary “disarming the narcissist”. It’s a great book. Not build around the narcissist as it may sound (and what he would love, harhar) but putting your relationship first (whichever). And so it is therapy for you, too. And you get a clou how far you can get and how difficult it will be.
    If you don’t manage to read it through, you should consider to leave, I guess… (0:

  26. I think there’s yet another subset of this person who actually wants most to hurt themselves and best achieves that through incredible violence and cruelty toward others — like the people who commit suicide by trying to assassinate the president or pope or something.

  27. Hmm I really get what you mean about hard to define Elsa and I think there are quite a few variations.

    I know I have this aspect to my personality and it has been exaggerated due to drug use but before than I was easily able to claim innocent, good girl/victim./nothing could ever be my fault. Infact drug use only highlighted that behaviour in me and now Im working on healing that.

    I once left a trail of things for a few certain people to find so I could have a confrontation with them and express my rage and feel a sense of power and control.I was always aware of my action but not aware of the morale, I really didn’t care for morale and left for time to tell me whether it was right or wrong (I’d never exhibited behaviour to that extreme before and I was testing the reactions of other people and myself).

    On a deeper level it’s related to control and controlling your environment. It’s almost as if the person see’s that strategic, manipulative thinking as qualities and everybody likes having those qualities recognized…it’s just they’re being used negatively.

  28. It seems to me a combo of Neptune, Mars and Scorpio is a problem in a lot of cases… just from reading some of the comments above. A friend of mine is Scorpio Sun and Neptune (trine Pluto) and Scorpio Mars. His actions are almost identical to some of those mentioned by BurningBridges (he will go back and cover his tracks. I’ve also seen him leave incriminating evidence of affairs and such so his partner can find it. It’s almost like he baits her on purpose so she can confront him so he can rage).

  29. (((mokihana)))
    Went out with someone like this for a bit. It was an astonishing and frightening experience.
    He liked to lie just because he could and would casually salt the conversation with lies to see if I’d spot the inconsistancies. He wanted to be caught but not out of guilt; just for a power struggle to prove his dominance. He had a moral compass but of a treacherous sort; any kind of lying, stealing, cheating or cruelty he did was acceptable because he had to prove he had a sneaky power over everyone all the time. It was conscious but he had no grasp of (or interest in) any suffering he caused; he was a victim. He wanted to be called on stuff he did & would provoke it, but only so he could take the person confronting him apart. Like a really extreme testing of people. Very paranoid. Mars in scorpio & sun in leo. He certainly woke me up to my own victim mentality.

  30. My stepfather has mars scorpio square leo pluto. He’s really good at baiting for arguments. Makes a false accusation. Treats you like a liar, then treats you like *you* were wrong for defending yourself, then psychoanalyzes *adnauseam* why he thinks your wrong. (?) ‘You think this because of this. You feel this because of this’. You can’t win. They’re right and you’re *wrong*. Everything you say is used against you. And he never apologizes. He will say that you hurt *his* feelings. And yes, i would fight (fall for it. I was a teenager), and say hurtful things…it always escalated…..

    My mother doesn’t seem to realize how insensitive she can be, and psychoanalyzes my emotions. Gemini with scorpio moon. I would get criticized and analyzed for being “too sensitive”. (Atleast she knows i have feelings). If she ever saw this thread, she’d say how this is good for me, to talk about it, ya know, *therapeutic* for me. She liked to drink…this gave me tremendous anger and blame towards her. She would just tell me that *i* had a problem with *her* drinking, and would suggest i should attend *group therapy*. Her drinking caused problems in her marriage. She still drinks. And they’re still together. I think they’re well suited for each other. Lol….

  31. (((everyone)))

    This is a hard one to have an opinion on. It’s hard to put into words what I really wish to say. So I’m going to try…

    I guess people like that have no capacity to self-reflect. Narcissism, they’re sense of self is so large with the ability to turn the tables and never take responsibility. I sound like Burned Bridge almost. It is that form of gaslighting that is grandiose. And as for their reaction for when the truth is out they seek to punish the person who spoke as you said Elsa some larger than life way. Then still play the victim as though they’re innocent, like lies. I think they either rationalise and justify or just skim it over and move on.

    I would say it could be tied to astrology but I would say its more psychological and sociological. Like Burned Bridge said others have the placement who take responsibility. I say astrology isn’t the cause nor the key point as it doesn’t matter in this case. It’s about their socialisation process (sociology) and how their defence mechanisms work (psychology) and how much they rely on it. Narcissism is a defence mechanism therefore instead of taking the punishment like a healthy [so to speak] person they keep defending. Whether that be their image, lies, repressed feelings and so forth and that need to defend is so strong.

    During their socialisation they may have been the scapegoat, the one who was always picked on, they realised lying got them everywhere or grew up with someone close who is narcissistic themselves making the process all the more normal. Having too much pride too may cause that narcissistic tendency.

    Even thinking about it now… there’s so many factors to take into account.

  32. I recently worked with someone like that. Bad-mouthed me repeatedly and was very rude and aggressive toward me then played the victim. Also seemed to think that everything I did was about her. I, too think 12th house can come into it, projecting their own shadow onto others. This girl had venus conj pluto in Scorpio in the 12th, also moon in Pisces which might explain the victim mentality. I found her intense focus draining. Her Mars was in Cap but fell into my 12th house.

  33. I don’t know if anyone has mentioned, but I’d read that narcissism can show in an afflicted sun.

    I worked with a narcissist once, the mentality is unbelievable. She would do or say ANYTHING to get her way, no matter who she had to step on. Utterly ruthless, she never switched off – just did not stop until she got her way. Then, once she had her way, she’d appear genuinely surprised when the person whose reputation she’d just ruined didn’t spontaneously become her friend.

    Anyway, I don’t have a birth time but her sun was opp Uranus, square Saturn and conj Sedna (2.16 orb).

  34. This was my stepmother all the way! She had a Scorpio moon and would present herself one way(perfect society debutante) and act another(vicious childish manipulative bitch) when she thought no one else was around. I just thought she was deceitful, because she seemed like the best damned liar on the planet, but when confronted even with her own voice on recordings (I tried to fight back)she could’t or wouldn’t connect that she was this person and neither could most other people, even though they would hear and see her. At her funeral no one except the young people could remember her as anything but a saint.(She usually saved her nastiness for children and people she considered “beneath her station”) I have never seen anything like her since then. Bizarre

  35. I think we’re talking about people that lack the ability to take responsability for their own actions, I don’t know how much narcissism is involved. What is worse is that some of them actually get away with it. The people I have known with this behavior were air and fire signs. Especially combinations of Leo and Aqua that look extremely funny and entertaining but act like assholes underneath their “jokes” and “detachment”. There’s a certain level of hypocrisy in the mix.
    I noticed a lot of people talked about the 12th house being involved and I have to express my doubts. The 12th housers I’ve met were quiet and discreet – that’s all, sometimes with a victim mentality but no outward manifestation of any feeling – positive or negative. I am a 12th houser myself, Mars and Venus in Pisces, 12th house, but I like to express my anger openly, I struggle to control it and I take full responsability for what and who I am. More often than not people project their crap on me, rather than the other way around.

  36. I did something really horrible once but owned up to it afterward. I prefer not to talk about it, though. I did wrong, I know I did wrong, now I just want to leave it be. I apologized to the person directly affected and that’s where it stays.

    Since I don’t want to talk about it, though, this post makes me wonder if others think I’m trying to play the victim / act innocent. Hm…
    (For the record, I’m not and I know I’m not; I’m just assimilating and introspecting to figure out where and how this plays. It’s a ego-hit. I never thought I’d stoop as low as I did, so I need to re-evaluate. However, I have Neptune, so sometimes people see what they want with me.)

    Other than that, I really have no idea on this phenomenon — though I do know someone who is eerily like the type CP described. The vast majority of people in my life fuck up, admit they fucked up, and either rationalize it or work to change it.
    I’m kinda grateful for that. 🙂

  37. i think its a pathology. i lived with it for almost 20 years. since i left, his behavior has gotten worse and he actually thinks its everyone else that is in the wrong(and not just worse with me, but with his children and work mates too). he believes his garbage. there is no finding a middle ground or reason with that type of person. they are so delusional in their world that everyone and everything that doesnt agree, is the horrible/wrong/sick/rude/awful person. i am now in the process of a restraining order from this person. he actually believes his behavior is ok because i ‘deserve’ it because i left him. its simply sick.

  38. I’ll give an example of what I think this means.

    I’m texting my sister Scorp rising/Sag sun/ Scorp moon.

    Me: Wanna chat with me in five minutes?

    –three hours later–

    Sister: I’m about to leave for that baby shower I told you about.

    This to me would be an example of what you mentioned, Elsa. It’s narcissism, in my opinion.

    I read it as, “ugh, I don’t want to talk right now. Let me send her a text just before I leave, that way I’m not lying. I’ll answer her, so she can’t say I ignored the text. She can deal with her own feelings, I’ve said my piece.”

    If I get mad, she can always claim she “told me” even if it was three hours later.

  39. I know one person like that and yeah…narcissistic is definitely an apt word to describe her. In her case, I think she was completely aware of what she was doing. She’s simply mean-spirited while putting up front the motherly-caring-loving-gentle Cancer AC. So when people called on her behavior that image was threatened and she successfully played the victim/innocent card.

    She once lied to me that a colleague was acting inappropriately with her and went off to complain to a higher authority, just because the colleague didn’t agree with her on a minor thing.If someone called BS on her I bet she would’ve convinced everyone she was telling the truth with her eloquent and dramatic act.

  40. Two different scenarios in my life touch on this unleashing, ‘cruel to be kind’ thing. One was a long term effect, the other short term. Both men had Mars in Scorpio. Elsa, I am also going with narcissistic personality disorder. Please, I am not saying that all Mars in Scorpio are bad. I understand the energy now and now how to effectively deal with it. The long term individual still believes the abuse that was inflicted never happened.

    The alternate universe.

  41. I would think this kind of person is irresponsible in general in that sense that nothing is ever their fault. At the same time, there’s a victim mentality/sense of entitlement/denial when confronted about their act. “It’s not my fault, she did something so I had to beat her. Since it’s not my fault, wonder why she left?”

    I agree there’s narcissism linked to it.

  42. Going back to the absolute beginning and electricmind’s reference to Mars in the 12th — spot on.

    I know an active alcoholic with a Scorpio moon and Mars in Pisces retrograde in the 12th. He is very intelligent (Mercury in Virgo) and charming (sun in Libra) but had a dysfunctional childhood and is afflicted with a mentality that combines “woe is me” and “who are you going to believe — me or your lying eyes?”.

    He applies his considerable mental energy to justifying his screw-ups (either “It didn’t actually happen” or “OK, it happened, but it totally wasn’t my fault”) rather than to not screwing up in the first place. Sad.

  43. this article gives alot of clarity! so awesomely described and insightful.

    quote:
    “Let’s say a man beats his wife. He clearly beats her and when she finally manages to leave him, he presents himself as confused as to why this happened.”

    — so it’s a person who is so blind to their major faults.
    i know we all have faults and failings, but this is so extreme. It’s as if his “violent act” is justified, with no empathy, it’s all about him.

  44. I feel Oscar Pistorious can be placed into this category.. It has been astonishing to see his denials during the murder trial.. He doesn’t seem to realize the way he has destroyed Reeva and her family.. This is just one example.. I’m sure there are countless examples of domestic violence where people pretend to be innocent..

  45. I’m reading this w Trump in the news for two years. What a lesson in narcissism, self-aggrandizement, aggression. The potential for his behavior is clearly in his chart. Hmmm…mars & Pluto in 12th and Leo, proud Leo rising, Saturn squashing Venus in Cancer, born on a lunar eclipse, ie moon hidden so he has no idea of his personal unconscious, or security need and it’s in overblown jupiter’s Sign of Sadge, & speaking of Jupiter & Neptune in Libra in 2nd. Perfect set up to be a film-flam man & see relationships as way to make money for himself. Throw in explosive Sun Uranus conjunction in the house of the boss, in his head w no empathy Gemini. He grew up w brutal father & rejecting mother. So nurture didn’t help. But, all of the above could be used to take a stand & say I’m never going to treat people like that, I’m going to work to heal my wounds and stand for children, women & elderly (11h) but no…he doesn’t do that. It’s too easy not to & calling him out makes you a target not just for tweets but all the poisonous rage he carries. Ick. But what a lesson for us all & yet about 1/3 of the people like him. Sad. Very sad.

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