I once wrote about how there is no such thing as a crime of passion. This was proven via a man’s research that I respect. I still believe this.
Factoring out drunkenness or some other situation that truly impairs a person, I wonder if things are really said or sent in the “heat of the moment”.
My friend, Ben argues against this. He says there have been many times in his life that he’s written angry or hateful letters…but not sent them. I think most of us could say the same.
Other times, he’s sent what’s he’s written. Either way, he’s says he’s aware what he’s doing. He’s thought it through.
“Once you do that, you can’t take it back. There is no, oops, let me take that back, because now I don’t like the way how I feel. You’ve shown your hand and that’s it.”
I think he’s probably right, but I have Libra so I want to know what others think.
What are your experiences with this? How deliberate are your communications?
Elsa ~ you’ve chosen the Mercury square Saturn aspect to post about communication uproars. Fine timing there !
I’ve spent considerable time recently, considering how to best express that my astrological advice is not free; and how to contour that message privately and publicly. It’s also an interesting time of dis-agreements in points of view with those I generally “groove” with. Choosing my words carefully is a consistent order-of-the-day.
My very seldom outbursts are certainly not pre-meditated, but do refer to previous, civilized conversations I’ve profferred about my concerns or viewpoints on matters I consider can be negotiated. Yes, I’ve thrown away or deleted commentary I’ve felt the need to express. I have an Aries Moon, so I entertain this need. But I also have Saturn in Cap (self-discipline) opposing Cancer Sun (community focus), so I’m capable of re-wording a difficult communique, or saving it for a better moment to share.
With the fire moon trining a host of Leos, I’d much rather entertain laughter than rage, but the latter is certainly an infrequent possibility under transit !
Depends on the situation. If I put something out there as a cardinal mercury tends to do, there may be a response. And that tells me what the situation is and shapes the way the conversation will go. Has to do with limits of people involved. If someone else puts it out there, I will probably deliberate more. Or ask for clarification. And free flow back and forth, that’s a really good thing.
With Mars conjunct Mercury in the 9th, I have a tendency to blurt things. But at this stage of life, I do know what is leaving my mouth.
I know I’m responsible for what I say. I’m willing to accept the consequences that may come. In other words, I am like, Ben. My speech is deliberate.
I may apologize if someone is hurt by something I say, when it’s not my intention to hurt them. But I am way too old to have things just falling out of my mouth, or to pretend this is the case.
There have been many times when I said something at the heat of the moment, but now that I think of it, it comes to me that at the same time there was a voice in me saying „this isn’t wise, you know, so stop it!“. And sometimes I’d stop, and sometimes I wouldn’t, and when I didn’t, IT WAS DELIBERATE. It was like: I’m gonna say this/do this, and you can all go to hell! The ‘heat’ brought it on, but it was my DECISION to say/do it or not.
(Libra with a first house Mars in Virgo.)
I know that feeling. You want to say it, more then you don’t want to say it, so you say it.
I think this is what, Ben is talking about. When you make a decision like that, then you’ve made your decision and you can’t come back and have that person not know how you feel. You’ve shown your hand.
As a card player, this seems true to me. The cards have been shown…it’s ridiculous to expect a person has some way of un-seeing them.
Occasionally, I’m aware of the nano-second just prior to doing or saying. If it’s present, I’ve learned to stop, don’t move or speak, just for a second. THANK GOD I finally became aware of that nano-thing, whatever it is. It’s always right and I’ve avoided some real boners. It’s probably Libra rising.
I have Mars in Gemini in the 12th. I have no idea what I’m saying at the crux of a disagreement. Luckily I don’t usually say things that get me in trouble, but I definitely say things I haven’t thought about, and sometimes things that I don’t even mean. I can usually figure out what I really meant – after the fact, but it’s a totally backwards way of expressing myself. Not very controlled. I feel totally incompetent with talking about my feelings in the moment (Moon opp Mercury). I’m much more comfortable when I have time to compose my thoughts and craft a response… but I could take forever. Otherwise I’m just incoherent and we need a decoder.
I’ve flipped my lid before. A few times in my early twenties. I think drugs and alchohol may have had something to do with that. Nowadays, I’m in control of myself, more or less. Sometimes I have a hard time hiding my irritation though. I think I roll my eyes a lot. I guess on some level I want the person to know that I think they’re stupid. But I’m a libra and I really don’t want any direct confrontation.
I just realized how passive aggressive that is.
“Once you do that, you can’t take it back. There is no, oops, let me take that back, because now I don’t like the way how I feel. You’ve shown your hand and that’s it.”
He is right in my book- without absolutely no f*cking doubt! If you stab someone, at worst you kill them, at best? You will scar them for life.
A pissy little word like “sorry” will never dissolve the fact.
A ha ha… replying to myself! But just to clarify, that applies to wounds both mental & physical. Either way, you did do or say “it”, however different you may feel later, that WAS still a part of you!
I say keep your actions few & mouth shut… or cop painful fall out/ concequences on the chin. You CAN’T take things back, s’way it goes.
I think people say things because they want to say them.
I was just thinking about the fact that I talk about things that I never would have opened up about ten years ago. Over the past few years, I sort of lost my filter – a good thing initially, but not after a while. Pain has been a huge factor – and feeling misunderstood. The only trouble with speaking up when you’re in that painful place, is that it can makes misunderstandings worse, and alienate you. Or you give people more to judge you by. You’re looking for understanding, and to stop whatever bad thing might be happening, and instead it just grows worse. So I’ve gone back to my journal, where I used to vent, cry, and sort out my feelings, as well as perception versus reality.
I have Mercury-Saturn natally. Also trine MC, conct Ceres, Chiron, and Sun. One thing that’s difficult for me, is dealing with people who just decided I was crazy, and lacked empathy, although their opinions stop mattering to me in general, after a while. I did feel like I was going crazy for a long while, and it’s no fun. There’s a mixture of shame in myself, and disgust for the person who found it easier to judge than sympathize (thereby increasing the hurt). I’m responsible for anything I’ve said, even though I wasn’t in my right mind, but those who poked me were responsible, too. I’ll generally find myself understanding their place, at some point, but some don’t give that in return – either because they don’t want to, or because they’re incapable of it. Sometimes, I think the world could be a much kinder place, and other days I feel like the kindness is overflowing.
In my opinion, those who attack viciously in the heat of the moment are usually people who have just suffered what is called a narcissistic wound, in other words, they attack to conserve their own self image in the face of a perceived insult to their perception of who they think they are. Add to it things like family honor, personal pride, cultural codes of honor etc. and they are ready to kill or maim right then and there…..
That’s a great observation. Thanks. 🙂
Stella56
Yours words around narcissistic wounds resonate deeply with the reasons behind some things I said in a punishing and demanding way to my boyfriend recently. My younger part wanted love and reassurance from him but the way I asked for this was very hurtful and had the opposite effect.
I’m very controlled and deliberate of what I say and when younger I could hurt others willingl yet often impulsively.
At 38 it’s time I watch out more for when my narcissistic wounds are activated! More accountability for my words. With Mars in Gemini and strongly aspected I need to own the power of words!
Cris
I think there is something like heat of the moment, it is pure rage and it goes for a quick “kill” = caveman style. This is instinct. My guess is that people who act this way are not emotionally mature enough to controll themselves. They want to hurt, because that makes them feel good. Sure, they feel uncomfortable about themselves as they cool down, but the thing is, you cannot take back, what you said. And truth is, you meant it the way you said.
Ditto @Angela.
Wow @whynot reminded me of something I learned in psychology. We’re all animals in a sense. We have been socialized to act with restraint because otherwise society would be a much more hostile place to live. But our base drives can be very vicious – just watch young children if you want confirmation. Even the nicest of kids will hurt with intent to injure either out of amusement or retribution.
I have mars square pluto (3rd house pluto) so I am fully aware of what my anger button can do and if I set out to hurt someone it is thought out but only insomuch as a relief of that pain. Whatever I do comes from the feeling that either they know how much they have hurt me and they don’t care, or they don’t care whatsoever and I want them to feel what they have done. So yes its deliberate in the reasoning that I am consciously taking justice into my hands, but its certainly not rational because neurologically I’m just not capable of fully disengaging from my wound to consider that in the future I won’t feel so vengeful.
I watch what I say, especially now that Saturn is in my 3rd but I’ve trained myself to think before I act and possibly astrologically, I was just set up to be more mercurial than mars driven. However, I don’t believe everyone is set up that way or even capable of it. I think some people are just more likely to act on those impulses for whatever reason. Biologically we’re set up for it.
hehehe….I think I’m qualified to weigh in on this. You wrote minus drunkenness but I think all of it stems from wanting to say something and perhaps not knowing how to say it. Or more importantly, I’m pissed and I don’t know whom or what to direct it at so I’m just gonna spew that shit. I believe that you must be pretty centered and know who you are in order to know where and why feelings occur and IF at anyone they should be directed . Everyone walks around with wounds and given the right circumstances, feathers are gonna fly. For instance, I was drunk when I wrote that shit on your blog, Elsa, do I excuse it because of this? Hell no. I am responsible for by behavior at all times. I asked myself, why did I get so pissed off. This is something I need to know. I certainly wasn’t angry with you, alcohol may have encouraged me to aim it at you, but I know there is something else there. Was I wanting to beat up on someone, or be a know it all? There is something there. In my case I chalk it up to bad behavior and being irritated, my own shit. To suggest that any one of us is so well thought out and all knowing at any particular instance, is a stretch for me. I am fallible. I can be light I can be shadow. I am just human. Also, there may be some truth to what is said, but does it really have anything to do with the person you are directing it at. A lot of times, no. Life, soul, ain’t that simple.
I agree with you, elizabethe, and put in the drunk part so you would know this was not in regards to you…and also because people do say things in blackouts, they have no clue they’ve said!
This is about the circumstance, Ben describes. He writes the venom…thinks and either sends it or he doesn’t. Stone-cold sober. 🙂
You’re going to do something…or not do something. You decide to do the thing, and the results are the results.
I understand. I’ve written those letters. And I actually have a fine example that happened to me this morning. I am dealing with someone who is never wrong. The world is out to get her yet I have always been her friend. Am I pleased she challenged me? nope. But she doesn’t even know what she’s doing. Unconcious behavior and that’s sober. There is a lot of that and it must be taken into consideration. I’m not gonna bury her, but I’m also going to re-emphasize the boundaries. Most people will push to get away with what they think they can get away with. It’s human nature. I don’t think there is anything particularly maniacal about it.
And yes, I know, it’s not in regards to me. I know you would and did say what you wanted to say. I trust that. ♥
And the nope can’t take it back sounds like someone who is a wee bit too sensitive. And I”M sensitive. but I absoulutely factor in that we all fuck up. Misdirected anger or upset is a huge part of being human. Look around. It’s the part where you go back and say, ya know what, I was a fucking asshole, of course it’s not you, it’s me. People fuck up. Unconciously. Continually. Period.
Also, I don’t buy the idea that what another person did or said, caused words to fly from my mouth, though I know this a common excuse people use. My husnand uses it.
Don’t get me wrong. I tell him he’s the worst bastard in the world at times and guess what? It’s because that is what I want to say!
It’s not because of what he said. I run my own mouth! No one helps me with this.
“I said this, because you said that…” Very common. I hear all the time, but think it’s ridiculous. No one has their hand up your ass, moving you mouth. Sorry for being gross, but what I’m saying is true.
OH SNAP!!!” You made me”….. Those three little words will send me into the ether. Own your shit. I always own mine. I don’t know why people find it so difficult to be wrong. I don’t even really see it as wrong…usually it’s just difference of seeing things or not really listening/understanding one another in the first place.
My husband says that all the time. I roll my eyes and tell him how glad I am to run his mouth for him.
“I like it,” I say. “I like it, how I’m in charge of you.”
🙂 🙂 🙂
He gets all pissed.
hahahaha
“P made me do it. I did it because of, P. If if wasn’t for, P, I’d have never said that. That, P!”
That is the BEST response I have heard to “you made me”!!!! Thanks for this nugget Elsa I am going to use this. It appeals to the side of me that loves to poke the bear 🙂
It’s cute when you’re being sexy. But mofo, if we’re in a disagreement you better back up if you think I’m gonna take on your shit as well as mine. Back up.
sorry. my mind wandered. P made me do it. I did it because of P. Sorry. I totally read that sexual. haha. I know what you meant. but it COULD go either way. Jupiter Scorpio out.
Funny thing. The other day when we had the above convo…that night I dreamt about the ex-boyfriend from 16 years ago whom that conversation reminded me of. I haven’t thought about him in yearrrs. Anyway….dreamt about him when I went to sleep that night. I was sitting in a doorwell, there was a girl sitting across from me on the other side. Like a brownstone in the city. And ex-dude was leaning over me making a drug deal. very 1970’s. It was a very weird dream. I haven’t thought about him in forever.
I don’t know how much Libra you have…. I have a Libra Sun and Merc. with that said, I never feel like hurting anyone. Still, The Scorpio in my chart, can sometimes be unforgiven. I’ve worked a lot on forgiveness over the years. I started where I always needed to get even. Now, I’ve done a 180. I’m competitive at work. I’ve tried to tone that down, so that if I don’t get to the client first there will always be another one I can find. It’s a mindset. You have to modify what can be very deliberate. I too write letters all the time… and hardly send them. Mostly to lovers tho! lol It helps to write them and cleanse what is inside. Still if you wait just 24 hours and read it the day after, often times, you see you were on a rant. Those words are your emotions. You may not feel entirely the same the day after.
I believe what I’ve heard is if you think the thought, it is the same condemnation. I believe that is untrue though. I think that is what sets society apart. The people who think the thought and act on it…. may not have a conscience. The others may think it, but may know it is not right, hence do not act upon it.
My Mars/Pluto conjunction opposition Moon is scathing. It’s my tightest natal aspect. And, boy, have I said and written things that are incisive in my day. Learned, that it is the best way to lose a friend (no matter how close) and/or a lover – in an instant. What’s sad and hard is that, no matter how much I try, I cannot control it. No pill. No nada. Explosive!!! “Dynamite” has been my nickname since I could talk. 🙂
I’ve learned that same thing, gio. Now I always think to myself – you may have to pay for this…
If it’s important enough for me to say, that I am willing to pay whatever it might cost me, I send. If not, I not only don’t send, I generally set it aside, telling myself it’s stupid. I’m making a mountain out of a molehill or whatever.
But as Baretta said (before he was busted), “Don’t do the crime, if you can’t do the time…”
I took that the heart, lol. Italian wisdom. Italian people hack off body parts, yanno? We’re pretty drastic. It’s in our blood and we probably assume it’s in your blood as well.
Listen to Sammy Davis sing the theme to Beretta.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SivUT1x7j18
There’s everything you need to know in life, right there.
Why complicate things?
With mercury conjunct mars in my 1st (also conjunct my asc) I’ve seen both sides to this. When I was younger, I learned the hard way, more than once, how to hold my tongue or risk paying dearly. Like Elsa, I now ask myself how much I want to pay for things before I say them. Another way that I see this, is from Elsa: “is this the hill you want to die on?” With pluto in my 3rd, learning to transform my communicaitons is a running theme, though I feel lucky that pluto is sextile my merc/mars/asc vs in a square to them (thank god for small things) 🙂
Angie
Wild. Merc square Saturn, Chiron square Sun, mars trine pluto. And a lot of air. Yes I could mean that mean thing I said in that moment; just in that tiny moment or maybe more generally. But saying it can give it so much more weight & meaning & significance than it might really have; than all the other ways I also might feel about that moment or situation or person, when I was calmer & had more space or my sore spots weren’t feeling leaned-on or when I had more perspective on what really mattered to me.
I used to think what people said in the heat of the moment revealed something they truly felt. Now I think; yeah maybe in that moment for some reason that’s nothing to do with me. Or maybe it’s a raw truth. I find it hard to find the words that speak my feelings. So I take it that others’ words might also have a possible wide margin of error.
Words spoken in the heat are still hard to get past, even more so if the sayer buys into their own story. You can’t ever take the words back. They’re like acid. They just keep eating in.
These days I keep such a rein on my tongue I might be at the other extreme.
Here is a joke I received just the other day. Sums it up for me.
A man received the following text from his neighbor:
I am so sorry Bob. I’ve been riddled with guilt and I have to confess. I have been tapping your wife, day and night when you’re not around. In fact, more than you.
I’m not getting any at home, but that’s no excuse. I can no longer live with the guilt and I hope you will accept my sincerest apology with my promise that it won’t happen again.
The man, anguished and betrayed, went into his bedroom, grabbed his gun, and without a word, shot his wife and killed her.
A few moments later, a second text came in:
Damn auto correct. I meant “wifi”, not “wife”.
I’m very defensive, if you haven’t read that in my inserts. Grand water trine includes saturn. Gotta watch that. My mercury is trined by uranus so I can be blunt and to the point. I could cut to the bone. But then what? I have to deal with the fallout.
Got hit again yesterday. I felt so invaded and violated. At first I thought it was the mercury saturn squre (and I did consider getting depressed about it, but stopped way short of that). And I did not sight any other social stress. It’s a pattern the two of us have. She tells me I’m stubborn because I won’t do it how she likes and I tell her I feel pushed and controlled toward doing things that I find questionable. Because it comes in streaks, I am thinking it might be mercury joining her stelliumonious grand air trine. I am thinking that grand trine ‘can be’ wicked and thoughtless. So I decided I can like her but not like her air trine run amok. Like I don’t like mine run amok. How less time consuming it is, to let it drop.
oops. Natal merc sextiles uranus. Have trines on the brain.
@Elsa, thank you for your reply. It helps to know that I am not alone. Not to mention all the bloggers who have been so honest about also having “foot in mouth” syndrome. The only thing I wanted to add was, in spite of your brilliant pearls of wisdom, I do not have a filter before I eviscerate people with my words. I just don’t. Am furious with anger and my tongue becomes a scalpel. No hit pause first.
Am certain again it’s the Mars/Pluto opp Moon super tight aspect that I have. But I should add that Mars and Pluto are both in the first decanate of Virgo (a very, very critical sign in my experience) and a Moon in Pisces (which I guess is just so irritated emotionally by that opposition that there is zero emotional control).
Can’t wait to do a reading b/c this is far more complex than am letting on. There’s an incredibly well aspected Mercury COMBUST (yikes!) the Sun sitting in Cancer in the first house and on the Ascendant (so am always right!!) and that’s part of (how did Notch put it?) a “stellimonius” grand trine after grand trine, kite formation…so am winded by my own chart. I cannot live up to it.
Again, the karmic lesson, is that I did lose ALL of the people who were once close and dear to me, including love relationships, leaving me quite lonely and depressed at this time in my life. Have been in psychotherapy for most of my adult life, too, and, this is the absolute truth, had a therapist pick up a huge leather chair and almost threw it at me for saying something he deemed crossing the line. That was last year.
I understand that I do have to learn to be my own filter and think things through, and this is no excuse, but the universe did not wire me that way. Perhaps it was all leading to this blog and to this moment, so I will finally do just that. I mean, (not sure if anyone on here watches that drivel on T.V.) but look at the reputation the latin Bachelor garnered for being the exact same way. And, fortunately or unfortunately, am a latin male too. Half-Syrian. So part of this insanity must be programmed into my DNA. That’s absolutely not my fault!!!! lol.
Namaste and much love to you all. Thank you for all the wonderful blog entries and for your advice Elsa. Talk to you soon.
xoxoxoxox
Oh to be a fly on the wall, when your therapist launched that chair., 😀 And I always thought counselors and therapists and astologers had probably heard it all and nothing would rattle them. They are supposed to be in control of themselves as professionals, right? Oh dear.
Sometimes, I do say things/blurt in the heat of the moment. As for taking actions, I am fully aware of them.
If I go boom or yammer in the heat of the moment, I do it knowingly. Generally, though, I will choose to remain calm or observant, while putting my heat or rage into a container for use later if needed! 🙂 I will retreat, or pause, look through the meanings and options, and let it go, or let it roll, depending on what I deduce. If I choose to roll, I will try to choose the the right moment — i.e., not to just “release” grey noise willy nilly, but to see if I can affect outcome, regroup loss, reposition. I can wait a year or three, or just a day! Sometimes I feel like I am letting my internal peacemaker and warrior take turns. It’s also subject-based: certain topics or people are simply not worth my energy even in the heat of the moment: walk away. I’ve done what Ben does: write the hilarious note I’ll never send (as a Word doc to avoid any oops!) and then laugh and trash it.
If I can get away with it I say angry words to people that offend me otherwise I just let it go and sink it in or pray and distract the anger away.