Saturn In Sagittarius: Defining Your (Religious) Beliefs

sagittarius vintage cupI wish I had someone to talk to. I do not. So I am going to write this for you instead. It’s not something for babies to read. The rest of you, I hope you like it…

Back in February I was chatting with a Southern man on the plane back to Denver. He was an engineer. He had six (homeschooled) kids, all in college.   His son, sitting across the aisle, has the highest GPA in his entire university.

I think he said there were 20,000 students enrolled in the university.  The father was advising me on the ins and outs of navigating the education system the state where we’re moving. Considering the success he has with his kids, I listened carefully.

We also discussed the house we’d decided to buy. This is the house we wound up not getting.  Some days prior, my husband told me, “If your wife likes it and your mother likes it, you’ve got nothing to say about it!”

I thought the statement was funny and utterly true. A man is not going to go against his wife and his mother! I like that my husband states the obvious like this. But this man did not see it the way I did. He began to lecture me.

He told me that this was wrong…that my husband was wrong. The women should not be running the house. A man should step up, make the decisions and run the family.

I understood him to be suggesting two things. First, my husband was less than a man – secondly, I lacked understanding of my role as a wife.

I wasn’t taken aback by this. I wasn’t offended. I know that’s what people do these days, they get offended. But it’s just so stupid. Why not let the man talk?

I didn’t defend myself or my husband. Eventually the plane landed. We thanked each other for the conversation…we’d talked non-stop for three hours. I went home and forgot about it.

But then I came back here. And I went looking for houses again.  And I have been repeatedly questioned if not out and out challenged by the men I’ve met.  These are older men (Saturn figures). They own the homes I’ve been looking at.

They’re greatly flummoxed that I am shopping for a house without my husband. They demonstrate this is not-so-subtle ways. “You mean he send you out here to find a place..?”

“Yes,” I said.

“He trusts her,” the agent said, deftly.

“Yes, he does,” I said. This is when it clicked into place.

These are Protestants. I know where their rules come from. The Bible. So why don’t Catholics feel this way?

It’s because Catholics are devoted to Mary.  Our mother. Mothers in general. Your mother, the mother of your children, all mothers.  That is why my husband said what he did.

A Catholic man simply must honor his wife and his mother. It’s non-negotiable.  You can’t buy a house your wife and mother hate, and honor them now can you?

I have a list of criteria my husband wants in whatever house we buy.  I know exactly what that list is. As his wife, I would never choose a property that did not have all the things he wants. “He trusts her.”

I thought this was interesting. Saturn (learn) and Sadge (beliefs / religion) and all.  I can see I am going to come up against this constantly, around here.

I’m glad I caught on to it as fast as I did. It’s good to understand your own underpinnings.

How do your beliefs match or clash with what you’ve read?

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Saturn In Sagittarius: Defining Your (Religious) Beliefs — 70 Comments

  1. All I have to say is… FUCK YES, I believe and understand this, Elsa. Sorry for my language, but I had goosebumps!

  2. Whew, sorry, I had to calm down because this is *exactly* the kind of thing that has been heavy on my heart for the past few months since Saturn went into Sag. I kinda want to cry, because there’s so much sentiment in this and I so get it.

    It’s what true love is.

    • I’ve spent many o lifetimes being oppressed, and I know what it’s like to have a man decide everything, leaving you longing to *feel* something…longing to feel honored and valued an trusted. I know oppression, therefore,I know what this means. The woman’s heart is the home…(even in astrology, the moon (feminine) rules the home) this includes not just the house itself but the location and the atmosphere- everything. Home is where the heart is. Any man who tries to control this is not coming from love. It’s just not love.

      • I disagree. I think the man on the plane loves his wife and his kids to the bone. I heard his story. They met in college in Wyoming of all places.

        I understand the logic of a man heading the family, but assuming he’s not the head of the family, because I’m looking for a house is a leap.

        Where are we living? The state? We’re in the state he chose.
        The house I’m looking for is to his specifications.

        Why the assumption this is not the case? Why the assumption we are not in close communication, with a deep understanding of each other’s needs and a desire to fill them?

        In reality this is what is going on. Theirs is a knee-jerk reaction.

        • I’m not referring to the man… Specifically, I was referring to my own story. I was thinking of this in terms of the big picture of love, in the way I believe. I was referring to how I feel, in my personal life, because I dont want to be in the State I’m in… I want to be in another place, but my husband restricts it. It’s more to do with my heart and not the actual place… I want to go home. I was thinking in terms of two people who do not want to be in the same place/the same home. I dont consider it true love when one must give up their heart and for the sake of the other. I have Neptune on my sn, ive sacrificed too much. So maybe it’s a matter of “martyring”, for me personally, more so than it is just a place to live. To me, my true love would recognize my true needs and vice versa.

  3. The Catholic devotion to Mary is deep.

    I know someone who keeps a desecrated image of the Virgin in their environment. My husband was dumbfounded…

    “What do they think? They can do that the Jesus’ mother and not get their ass kicked? How would you like to see that done to your mother? You’d be pissed! You just don’t desecrate the mother of God and go merrily on your way. They’re going to get pounded. Their ass will be kicked and kicked and kicked. Jeez, are people crazy or what? I think I’ll fuck with the mother of God and that’ll be cool. God won’t mind…”

    Anyway, it’s going to be a trip living around here. I am not used to these things coming up in conversation, but this has been *routine* since I got here.

    So far it’s all been from men. *Saturn* in Sagittarius. At some point, I’m going to have to defend (Saturn) my faith (Sagittarius).

    My husband likes to debate Protestants…ask them questions.

    “Who was the first Christian? That would be…Mary! Mary had to be the first Christian – she was the first Christian there ever was…”

    So Catholic women emulate Mary, who let her son go to his destiny even though it was horrible for her. That’s what you’re supposed to do with your son (in my opinion).

    But you can see the stark difference. The mother had a relationship with her son. Powerful. And we’re supposed to do what Mary did, as opposed to try to hide our sons in our skirts!

    My broader point though, is that women / mothers are given their due. They’re elevated – period.

    • Yeah, the South is steeped in that old bilblebelt male-dominated family order crap.

      Arguing with them gets you nowhere. It’s lodged too deep.
      There is plenty of good about the South, but this is how it is for now.

      I consider myself fortunate to have gotten away for awhile, otherwise I might not have seen this clearly.

      • See, it doesn’t bother me. For two reasons.

        First, many of these families are very happy and successful. Their beliefs work for them. Who am I to judge them, especially when they’ve done better than I have with their lives!

        Secondly, I was raised to be tolerant and open to talking about these kind of topics. My grandfather (huge stellium in Sadge) routinely have various religious people out to discuss things. Hare Krishnas, you name it. I was taught to listen and learn.

        I don’t get all the hating. I don’t think it makes sense.

        And I definitely don’t think it’s “crap”. It seems obvious it’s not “crap”, if you look at it objectively.

        • I definitely don’t hate, Elsa. I was just calling a spade a spade. Some things are just crap. I love the South. Born and raised in the South, my whole family is there.

          • I only think it’s crap from a feminist point of view, not religious. Of course it can extend from religion, but I just wasn’t really coming from that angle when I said what I said. I don’t chastise people for their religious beliefs. I just find male dominance to be oppressive to women as whole.

        • +1 i agree. i dont get all the hating either. It’s so weird to me. Even women hating on Kate Middleton awhile back. It’s like, why hate? She isn’t obligated to the rest of womankind just because she’s in a “higher” position. If women want to become businesswomen, or artists, musicians, homemakers, or gardeners, ect. wonderful.

          • Yeah, and if a woman has no problem with her man telling her her place is this or there because *He* said so, that’s her prerogative. Same with any “should be’s” when it comes to gender roles. This isn’t about freedom of choice, the opposite actually, of course your pov is valid- people should have free choice. But when put in the context of chauvinism, there’s an argument to be made.

            Overall, honor, in my opinion, solves all this. If men and women truly honored each other, we wouldn’t have these issues.

    • God bless you for sharing your refreshing and very on point view! I totally agree with you. All Respect to The Blessed Mother, Father, Son and The Holy Spirit!

  4. Wowee, Elsa. Super insightful, very interesting.

    I think right now I am looking for ways to make my beliefs more concrete, to put them into practice. For instance, I believe what we know as western civilization is headed downward. This conflicts a lot with popular beliefs of progress and growth etc., so how can I take this belief I have and find how to live in society in a useful–even harmonious–way without getting sucked into false popular beliefs that will lead to an uglier future for our descendents. This is what I’m working on with Saturn in Sadge (right on top of my natal Venus).

    Thanks for your writing, Elsa.

    • Thanks, Firecat. This is the kind of thing I like to talk about…but I have no one to talk to so like I said…here you go.

      Sometimes I just have to express myself in order to move on.

  5. “I can see I am going to come up against this constantly, around here.” Yes, you will. Probably not to the extent you would have 20-30 years ago (even 10).

    This varies in the South area to area. Where I live – yes indeedy. Birmingham, Alabama, though, has a large Italian population, and of course Catholic. But you’d still run into what you’re speaking of…

    I have an old friend who grew up here, who becomes so incensed with the backward, uninformed nature that you speak of; so angry he can hardly talk. But he’s no Catholic.

    I wasn’t born here. My dad was a chemist and my family moved to East TN when I was 1. We drove to a nearby town to attend an Episcopal Church. I remember when I was in maybe 1st or 2nd grade, a girl told me Jesus was a Baptist. I was raised in the New Testament – that the husband should love his wife as Christ loves the Church. I also had to say the Rosary before my dad allowed me to be confirmed. (Not common practice for an Episcopalian here) I come from two long lines of strong women. Almost 30 years ago, I bought my little house in a rural area of East TN, without a husband, without my dad, all by myself. If anyone, if any man, said anything, it was said behind my back. I want to believe they do respect strong women. I don’t think they want to marry one (lol), and I think dating one is somewhat intimidating. But, they will respect you for your grit and determination.

    The State of Tennessee is debating whether to make the Bible the state book. The bill was introduced by the state senator from Morristown. (I’m not surprised.) The Republican governor does not support this. I won’t go into the reasons. Interestingly, a Baptist minister from Knoxville doesn’t support the bill either.

    Yes, know where you stand. Know what you believe.

  6. Muslims are a hot topic on Facebook right now. It scares me a bit that every day I see vitriol towards Muslims in general in my newsfeed. (I’m not one, but I have met a few in the past and they were nice.)

    Okay, so are ALL Muslims a threat to the world now? Will Saturn in Sagittarius force each of us to take a hard stance on this, or am I spending too much time on FB?

    • I think we ALL need to consider this: plantsandevolution.com

      ‘Ecological Spirituality’ INCLUDES ALL SENTIENT BEINGS and modeled by the most successful species(who have achieved self sustainability) on the planet, not divided by speech and misunderstandings.(here headed up by a man)

  7. I guess I would not like to pass judgement on religious beliefs that work for other families . If they are happy and thriving in their belief system, that is all that matters. I do find it distasteful to push what works for you on someone else. It is bad manners and disrespectful to suppose that there is one way to God. There are many paths to God and the truly enlightened know this well. I am glad that I was raised catholic and was taught to revere Mary. I have been supported by her more times than I can count when I prayed to her.I never would have made it without her. Jesus loved Mary Magdelain so much and said that she was of equal to all of the apostles. This did not please the apostles, they were jealous and taken aback by his revolutionary ways of seeing value in the hearts and souls of people, not based on their gender. It seems that he believed that genetalia had nothing to do with status. The old order was never accepted by him. His example was threatening the patriarchy. Today as it was then, this will get you into a load of trouble.

  8. isnt it good that you are just sitting back and listening to this small minded community rather than getting upset at them. You surely have a great outlook on life elsa

    • You seem very open-minded yourself, why don’t you give us the honor of hearing some of your beliefs. You can even keep your words all lowercase, as you have above, we won’t judge you when you write your ever so open-minded words in all lowercase, because you’re just so important and all knowing, your words are golden, no matter how small, just as you yourself, oh open-minded one.

      • Thank you, Christine. I don’t even think they’re small-minded. They think big thoughts, it just the thoughts are different than mine.

        And jeez, that insult above was not deserved. 🙁

        • To me, the poster got an equal insult to the one she gave your community. I just wanted to hear what her big, open, broad-mind would say- she was quick to call us small-minded, so I thought maybe she would show us more of what she has to say, that’s all. She insults your community while simultaneously complimenting you….not really a compliment. And who does that? Comes to a community , reads what they have to say, then insults that entire community to the leader of that community. That’s like going up to a mother….’hey, you sure are a beautiful woman, but your children are ugly beasts.’ Rude. Then the mother saying, “thank you”.

            • Don’t mind me, I’m acting slightly psychotic these days…I don’t know what the hell has gotten into me. Lol. It’s like my pluto/Saturn in the 3rd has taken a dose of steroids. I need to chill. Did some gardening today in order to ground myself and think about what is the matter with me. I need to step away from the computer until whatever this is passes. I’m just flying off the handle at everything I find even slightly unfair… just want to destroy mfs for being rude… tehe.

            • She probably was talking about the South. Jesus. Well humble pie sounds nice. I’m sorry if she was talking about the south, really really sorry..

  9. Yes, I am interested in defining my religious beliefs. I have been unsure of where I stand here for a very long time. I have been agnostic since my mid-20s, but now I do want to devote myself to a religious path. I am truly at a loss as to which one, however. So Saturn in Sagittarius will challenge me to figure this out.

  10. I am Orthodox but I noticed in movies that Catholics pray to Mary a lot and I like that, maybe because I grew up in a family where my mom did much of what you do, Elsa. However, the Orthodox pray mostly to Jesus but I don’t think the education is so strict, each family is different.

    You are trying to be diplomatic and understanding, but I don’t see anything nice in assuming that a man is less of a man (or not in charge of his family) if his wife is shopping for a home. As long as you treat these people with respect they should do the same, regardless of their education. If they don’t want others to judge them, they shouldn’t judge.
    This world is big enough for Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, etc. Maybe Saturn in Sag will show the limitations of faith – if faith and education are exclusive, not inclusive, something is not right.

  11. “You are trying to be diplomatic and understanding, but I don’t see anything nice in assuming that a man is less of a man (or not in charge of his family) if his wife is shopping for a home.”

    ~~

    First, there was more than one man. There were more than two men, there were four! But of the two mentioned, the guy on the plane was pontificating. I didn’t take offense because he was pontificating about everything. He was an electrical engineer. The house I was going to buy had a power problem. The gal on the other side of me said it would cost tens of thousands to fix. He spoke up to disagree…this is what started the conversation.

    He gave me good advice about how to maneuver in the state (with the power company). He talked about how and what he taught his kids. He told me two of his kids were being paid to go to school…and how my son could pursue this if he wanted. He was just sort a preaching type.

    So when it came to this other thing, he was just giving his opinion. He was not attacking or insulting. This is his belief of how things should go. Why would I be upset by it?

    ~~

    As for the other man I mentioned, he was more stuck dumb by the situation. This is not something he would ever do.

    However, he’s not a truck driver. If he was, he’d be well aware that you can’t drive around the country all day and night, working, yet still be available to look at houses. So you trust your wife to do this. It’s not like I don’t have his instructions.

    My husband and I are in agreement and really that’s all that matters to me. We know what we’re doing and we’re not worried about what people think we are doing.

    • He was just sort a preaching type.

      The slang term is he ‘mansplained’ you.

      As you say, you’re going to me getting that a lot, particularly from Southern Baptists, who tend to lean heavily on the very oldest parts of the Old Testament. (In particular, the parts with the slavery and stuff.) They sort of brush off a lot of the New Testament, even though they’ll praise Jesus every five seconds.

      I wouldn’t mention the astrology thing.

      max
      [‘Glad you absorb it without it bothering you.’]

  12. Hi Elsa,
    I like your writing a lot, however I would like to make a remark: this is not just about protestants, this is about CONSERVATIVE protestant life. I live in the Netherlands and here we have all sorts of Protestants (including a Bible Belt). But there are some very, very MODERN protestant men also. I myself was raised catholic and my husband was a protestant man, but very modern and he would not have dreamt of saying something like the remarks you are getting right now. I suppose this region where you are now is very conservative.
    And moreover: there are some very conservative catholic men as well, look at the church in Rome !
    My husband was much more modern in his approach of women, than many catholic men I know.

    mimi

    • This is similar to an area in Africa where women are heading up the council table for decision making. The men stop fighting if the leader (woman) reprimands them.

    • Most rebel ????
      Maybe they do rebel when they are young and are still studying, but when they really become adults and become settled they often find themselves thinking and acting the same way their parents did. Why ?? Because they were brought up this way. This is the milieu they were born into. The period when a person is most easily formed is childhood, that is when he or she is formed basically.

      True, some do rebel and start thinking in an Original and independent way but they are really very few.

      Where is your Chiron??

      mimi

  13. This is where I don’t get it. I don’t get why some people are so devout as to come down so judgmentally on others because of differences in religious beliefs?

    This is also where I feel so disconnected from society. This is my incorrect assumption that because my religion is a private personal relationship with God, other’s relationships with God are private too, so I would never fathom disrupting someone’s privacy. I cannot begin to imagine this type of passion. I don’t know or understand why people feel the need to get so angry about it.

    And I have Mercury, Jupiter, and Venus in my intercepted 9th house (Cancer/Leo). Maybe I’m too open minded.

  14. Ugh, just feeling your story, Elsa. I’ve been in the south since early 1977 (age 14). I was brought up Catholic from birth, but after my dad died, my mom forced me to be baptized in the Baptist church, and then she hauled us from Northern California to Upstate South Carolina, where her family roots are. It was culture shock on *so* many levels. I forgave her before she died, but I still despise the “Southern attitude.” I’ve found that the best way to deal with males in this environment is to serve up whatever you’re serving with some figurative honey poured all over it. When I forget that, I get in trouble.

  15. I have Chiron conjunct Jupiter in 9th house/Pisces. Both are also conjunct MC. Southern culture and southern-style evangelical/ fundamentalist Christianity are my “unhealable wounds.”

  16. I was just about to come to make the comment mimi made. The whole concept behind Protestantism means there’s a lot more variety within how Bible is interpreted and how much it influence the daily life between and even within denominations than within Catholism or any form of any World Religion.

    Take Nordic countries. All are traditionally Lutheran, yet lead every statistic for gender equality, and women have enjoyed liberties they didn’t have elsewhere traditionally, too. In Rural Finland, where I grew up, families used to build their own houses. And while the money to buy building material was usually earned by men, who’d go out for months at time to work in logging industry, railroads, building sites and, in coastal areas at sea, women obviously had a say, because they were in charge of running it all when men were away.

  17. I suppose this has all more to do with the environment(milieu) a person is born in. People are inclined to live their life the same way their parents do and did.
    I find the greatest change in attitude towards life in this respect occurred for us in the period since the 60’s (indeed since the Uranus/Pluto conjunction, which also brought feminism). Although I am definitely not a feminist, I see that this has brought a lot of freedom (especially for women)and through them it also changed Dutch men. Before the sixties life in the Netherlands was really oldfashioned and dull – the Beatles and the students were the ones who started the change.
    Of course there will always remain a minority of people that stay oldfashioned in their perception of life, also in their religion.

    And, Elsa, don’t underestimate the influence of the internet. I’m sure that in the long run even people in the most remote parts of the USA will be reached by the internet and will come into contact with modern life and therefore with modern ways in religion. Maybe that is why you had to change to this different state. Start teaching your new oldfashioned neighbours about modern views. Where is your Chiron – he is the teacher. Good luck !!

    mimi

  18. Fascinating dialogue. With Sag. Saturn transiting my 3rd house, 9 degrees from conjuncting my natal sun, faith, belief, religion and passed down family traits (anxiety in a psychological sense) are relevant and important to me. I was raised in Montgomery, AL during the 1960’s and 1970’s by Southern Baptist parents devoted to the religion and faith. I remember sitting in Sunday School around the age of 10 and doubting everything I was hearing. Going home and not speaking to my parents because their faith was so firm and it wasn’t that I didn’t want to challenge them…I didn’t want to disappoint them with my doubts. So much was and is mixed in with “religion” – racism, anti-feminism and now the backlash against those of a different sexual orientation. None of which is God centered.

    Over time I’ve come to see that religion has been too often hijacked and used as a tool to control large groups of people by smaller ones. Not new historically at all. But faith is a different matter,it is yours and yours alone. You can share you position, as we are all doing today, and still respect others.

    As to only one spouse buying a home for the family, I had the opposite experience. In 1997 the military was relocating us from D.C. to St. Louis. I had three children under the age of 4, the youngest only 3 months old. We had to move in 45 days. My husband traveled to St. Louis alone and bought us a house. I had researched the schools my children would eventually attend so he knew the neighborhood I was interested in and I trusted his judgement. Everyone who met him while he was making the open houses and decision in our neighborhood expected me to be some little wimp of a wife who followed three steps behind her man.

    Not so. We were partners and he trusted me to care for our children and I trusted him to find a home. Simple.

  19. i just saw this morning on yahoo news that the kardiashians went to Armenia for some kind of a “religious” trip. seems like alot of religious themes seem to pop out during saturn in sag.

    • Yeah, it’s front and center these days and will stay that way for the next few years.

      Click the tag on this topic…go back to the early posts where I said this would be coming. 🙂

  20. As a Protestant, I believe that your husband is supposed to be the head of your household, but as Jeff Foxworthy said…”I know if mama ain’t happy, ain’t nobody happy.” But it’s really nice to get the Catholic perspective on it. So, yes, I believe women should be honored and the Bible says the wife is the “crown” of her husband. I know we’re all liberated in today’s world and stuff — I, in fact, am single, but it’s still nice to realize that relationships require teamwork and society will judge you by that whether you care or don’t care. Proverbs 12:4 – A virtuous woman is a crown to her husband: but she that maketh ashamed is as rottenness in his bones.

  21. In my case, my father was completely against all religion. In fact, he insulted religion in general. I found my religion when I was about 10 years old but have never been a churchgoer. Unfortunately, my son is about to turn 20 and shares the same non belief as my late father.

    I never married, but I lived with a man twice my age in a very contemptuous, disagreeable relationship because I was financially dependent upon him. We moved to another state and I insisted he buy a home I chose that was very inexpensive and an excellent buy. We argued the whole time but he finally agreed. Once in the home, he told me it was too small for his tastes. He asked me if we could look at a more desirable home ( home we lived in was paid for outright, no mortgage) and I agreed. We found a home more grand and beautiful, I took one step inside and fell in love. We moved in and had a large mortgage payment. He passed away suddenly within 4 months. I decided to it and move back to the paid for home, but my teenage son begged me not to. He wanted to stay in the new home. So I sold the smaller home and paid what I could for the newer home, but struggled with the mortgage and property taxes. My son graduated from high school and received a full ride scholarship to a college 5 hours away. I sold the house after he left and moved into a tiny singlewide mobile home and have been paying rent for a year now. I am waiting to hear if I am finally approved for a mortgage of my own, for the first time in my life of almost 52 years.

    I am dreaming of a small, affordable home with a mortgage payment that won’t make me choke every month to pay. I will never again look at a large, beautiful home the same way again. After the property taxes and homeowner’s insurance on top of a bunch of other bills, owning claim to something small and easier to maintain sounds fine to me. I am so grateful to finally be able to make a choice for myself, and I have been praying to God to guide me thru it all. In God I trust, and he has not let me down yet.

  22. My beliefs are somewhere out in outer space right now. I believe god put man and woman together to help eachother. That’s it. I honestly think all the other role requirements are created by humans. Freewill is no shallow thing. We really can do whatever we choose to do as a human race. There is no should. I believe it’s gods dream to see us live in harmony with eachother and nature. I do believe that’s where more of gods wishes for us lie. In nature that is. And nature is ever evolving.
    I’m a Libra and I can see the benefit in either belief system.

  23. And in nature either sex will do what needs to be done for survival. If I believe my husband is the head of the family but he suddenly dies where does that leave me? I have to adapt. I’ve had to adapt. I’m a single mother. That’s not what I believe is the best way. But I’m doing what I have to do. I think beliefs are only valid if they work.

  24. Very interesting and insightful. My family lives in the south. My father’s church does not allow women to hold leadership positions. Literally.

  25. yes, its true. there are a lot of things to think about, what you believe, what you don’t in Christianity. there’s a lot to think about, especially the bible.

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