Saturn, Karma & Independence (Trap)

saturn-vintage-outer-space-original-print-number-501c-by-iowajewelIt’s common people use a another person’s bad behavior to justify their own. “I did X, but they did Y.”  I’m curious about something else.

Saturn pressures people to do the right thing. I am surprised at how long people can hold back the pressure. I am all for getting crap done, whatever it might be.

But it’s common people think, “Yeah, I’ll do the right thing but you first.”

Or they think, “As long as these people are doing this, I can do this other thing, because it’s a lessor evil.”

“I’ll quit stealing when they quit stealing.”

“As long as they do A, I will do B…even though I know that B is wrong.”

This is an awful trap.  You’re literally strapping yourself to someone(s) and acting in tandem with them when you’ve no control (Saturn) over them whatsoever.

When I was young, people used to say, “If they jumped of a cliff, would you jump off a cliff too?”  The obvious answer was, “No.”  You’re an independent person.

But when you tie or base your behavior to that of another person, that’s it.  You’re no longer independent.

Are you stuck in a trap of this type?

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Saturn, Karma & Independence (Trap) — 13 Comments

  1. Haha-sums it up. Thankful for Saturn through the 4th right now– I’m learning emotional maturity. Emotional independence: I don’t need anyone else to sustain me emotionally. Toughening me up, this Saturn through the 4th. Interestingly, the person I thought sustained me has sun at the exact degree Saturn is transiting yesterday-at the bottom of my chart- I’m positive I finally let them go and it feels major cathartic.

  2. I learned awfully young that I could not get away with that. It is my biggest hold up to entering the work force again. That game has become institutionalized almost as if there is an unwritten law that says I have to be a criminal. To be ethical is some kind of sin. Because the biggest scammer wins. It really came home this week again when I watched Bill Moyers: The Top Secret Trade Deal You Need to Know About: the Trans Pacific Partnership. And I thought I had heard everything. The potential effect on blogs was mentioned, as well, if you are interested. You can watch it on his site. I know it is some people’s passion to make money and they are running out of places to get it because the system is milked dry, but come on now, what the hell are they doing to everyone else.

  3. I have in the past. When my very close Aquarius friend (who had been one of my best friends for nearly 20 years) dumped me via text last fall I was devastated…until I realized what a negative influence she had become. In many ways. Yes, I loved her–I still love her–and her godson. But she made incomprehensible life decisions that also affected other vulnerable people, while at the same time preaching (she has a Sag Moon) independent thinking & live and let live…a message that speaks to my own heart.

    It took her dumping me ultimately for putting my partner ahead of her on a night they BOTH put me in a bad position, for me to realize how toxic the friendship had become. That was a horrible night for many reasons (it was a memorial for my partner’s friend who had died; she wanted to have some kind of ownership over the grieving, is the only way I could interpret the insane behaviour I witnessed). But it was what they call a come to Jesus moment: do I keep siding with my friend, or do I side with my partner? He didn’t force me to choose; she did. I regret ever picking up my phone that night but the truth would have been demanded to be told sooner or later.

  4. This is so true. The mention of this phenomena reminds me of somerhing my partner said last night while blurting out random frustrations and typing wildly to meet a school deadline, regretting how much time he spent on one project and no time on ohe ohers now coming due. Suddenly he’s also covering someone’s shift at work too and he was resentful that someone in the office was acting bitchy toward him because they were so busy and the printer broke (Mercury retrograde) and he felt this person was acting like the problems were his fault when he’s not responsible for the printer or the volume of appointments keeping the officemate from being able to leave early. I thought to myself, he’s describing his own behavior when he’s frutrated yet is unconscious of it in himself. Rather than say so, I listened to him vent. I felt it odd that he was unaware of the fact that he behaves the same way sometimes, showing annoyance on his face and it surprised me he was so upset to be on the receiving end of it when usually he’s not. He was just as offended as his behavior makes others feel. I just said that it sounded frustrating to spare him from additional stess.

  5. Oh Elsa – you really are good. What a thing it is to listen to a wise woman. I’ve learned in life that one thing you have no control over is what someone else is going to do – but you do have control over what you do. Even if – especially if – that means doing nothing. As long as you keep thinking “If I do X, this means the other person will do Y”, you are still stuck on their hook. You do X (or don’t do X) for you – not them. And the amazing this is, when you start acting that way, things really do happen. New things, you wouldn’t have thought possible.

      • Well, Elsa, apart from your natural wisdom and smarts, I think you had two things going for you: you were brought up in the desert – a long, long way from anything like a “man-made” community – and that grandfather you talk about. There’s some powerful humanity right there. Doing it all from scratch – from zero.

        I love what you talk about in these messages. It’s core stuff. But then I’m massively Plutonian, so there’s nothing I like better than a good Clean-Up Squad. Someone’s got to shovel the sh!t, and you are brilliant at it, baby.

  6. Elsa, you have no idea how many times I come here and find something you have written to be happening in my life. I dunno if your psychic but it’s getting kinda weird 🙂 You seem to be able to open my eyes to my and others behaviours, so I guess that can only be a good thing.

  7. im never like this and when i think about it childhood memories appear, i had these “morals” or whatever, i was chubby and with a weird hair so that made me be even more isolated and apart from the rest, oddly i ended up having a best friend for 7 years who is completely like this and to an extreme, i wonder for how long can we last together as friends like this, yet at the same time i think she looks for me even when i get mad because i end up being like her contact to earth

  8. about why people resist independence..you can grow up with a built-in equation of independence=death by isolation, and I mean it literally.of course it comes from early childhood dynamics.
    while on a material-practical side you actually get independent, you keep on centering yourself on others’judgement because of an absurd pattern you ingested with mother milk.
    the main reason why I don’t feel comfortable with “middle age” talk (I’m 44 ) is that around the last couple of years(uranus!) I’ve started to fuel my inner independence and I cherish this second part of my life very much..
    in a sense, when you come from such a place, by accepting that you can’t control others, you accept your basic loneliness in life, and-to me-that’s where authentic relationships begin to be possible
    independence now is also learning to deal with an intense social pressure on approved achievements for every single step of your life…
    I think much of this comes from massive projection, sometimes we don’t even know we are being dependent because we have a blind spot right on someone else’s behaviour…so much saturn 7th involved.and some of us are particularly successful in drawing projected fear from the others afraid of independence, so it looks like you can’t be independent because you get stifled ll the time..maybe it’s your own energy doing the trick!

  9. I am interdependent. I do barter, I do buy services. I do help out friends. They do help me out. So I am not totally isolated and independent in that regard. And what would I do without my mechanic and my forester and the ocassional handyman. And I do rely on the sun and rain and dirt to help me grow food. And I nurture native plants and trees because I do love the birdies and bugs. And okay, bunnies and other rodents, even though sometimes destructive, can be amusing too. I do believe I am giving thanks now for the gifts received. But don’t anyone dare try to force me to go to jail for them. Grrrrrr

  10. It is hard for me to balance extreme independence and needing others. I have a hard time trusting people (and the process) and coming to terms with disappointment in others. So, I don’t rely on anyone and try to do ridiculous amounts of things on my own, sometimes putting my own safety at risk. Too proud and determined, maybe. But, it’s always been that way. I want something done now. So I just find a way to do it. If I need someone, I look to see how they operate first (say in business) before making a long term commitment. I don’t like needing anyone. But you can’t do it all alone if you want to get further.

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