Rape, Murder, Torture – Fighting To Your Death

Breakfast this morning. We were talking about I don’t know what. Death and murder, I guess. 8th house subjects.

“Well most people never go to that edge,” he said. “But I’ve been there and I am telling you when you get all the way out there, self preservation kicks in.”

“I don’t know if I agree. If that’s true, then what about these women who don’t fight a rapist? Why doesn’t their self preservation kick in? They just get raped.”

“It does kick in but it’s too late. It does kick in but they wait too long. They wait until the guy is on top them, he’s got her pinned and when he starts choking her… now he’s going to kill her, then it kicks in but by then it’s too late. She’s thinking I’ll just let him do this and it will be all right. But then he starts choking her and she starts fighting at that point. And he gets his jollies from that and then she gets killed. And this is what the military trains you for. To self-preserve in time. You have to have that instinct kick in while there is still something you can do.”

We discussed suicide in relation to this rule and later, this:

“What about a guy who remains defiant while he is tortured to death?” I asked. “I know for a fact this happens.”

“It does happen. Yeah, that can happen.”

“So how does he break the rule? Why doesn’t his self preservation kick in?” I asked.

“Because it’s different. That’s a guy who is going to fight. That’s a fight to the death.”

I could not argue with any of this. You?



Rape, Murder, Torture – Fighting To Your Death — 15 Comments

  1. part of the thing with women not fighting back against rapists, it the training and brainwashing we received in the early 70s, which was SUBMIT and you won’t get killed. well, some of us didn’t hear that and so we kept our animal brains turned on, fought back and didn’t get raped

  2. I’ve got an opinion that might be too radical, even for ElsaElsa.com. Here it is. The history of the world is a history of war, murder, rape, pillaging, dominance. Men raped, pillaged and murdered in order to gain (property, wealth, power). Genetically, the men who did so got to pass on their genes. Inversely, the woman who took the rape and either made their attackers think they liked it, or just allowed it without fighting hard enough to make the men angry, survived and bred. So, we’re genetic products of rapists and manipulators. Too hard core?

  3. I would argue it, because in some people’s reality, not fighting=not dying. Rape is not easily fit into check-box list of incidents. One person may fight, one person may not, and there’s no saying what will ‘save’ you unless you are in the thick of things. Instincts mean EVERTYTHING. And, as it is said, hind-sight is 20/20.
    I realize that this is what the army may train you to escape from, but the fact remains that soldiers die, too frequently.

  4. kashmiri – he said the same thing. The women are trying to self preserve when they allow the rape.

    Hiro – I can’t believe anyone thinks my blog is radical! 🙂

  5. I was thinking the same thing as kashmiri sometimes not fighting equals survival I think it really depends on the situation and like kashmiri said “there’s no saying what will ‘save’ you unless you are in the thick of things.”. I had quite a violent childhood and that applied, you have to pick your battles, sometimes survival meant not fighting back but that didnt mean submit, it meant knowing the right time to fight back. I guess that could be my Pluto-Saturn conjunction talking.

    It acutally reminds of the song Polly by Nirvana. It was based on a story about a girl who survived rape and being killed by picking her moment to escape except he sings it from the killers view point ( you can tell he was a Pluto rising)

  6. I have recently counseled a young woman who is deep into the body mod. leather crowd..she self mutilates on the weekends, at group gatherings, for “spiritual” purpose (??)..I am way liberal but this pushes me to the edge of my understanding–and it relates to the self preservation thing–women with LOW SELF ESTEEM or who have been abused don’t seem to have the same self-preservation wiring– some, mind you, not all.

    Many young teens are “cutters”–same issue,I believe..

    I guess some survivor- focused women rally and fight RIGHT AWAY ,with a rape, while others wait, and wait, and wait,till it’s too late.

    And the women who fight back “too late” ARE often in survivor mode– believing if they submit to the physical rape they will get away with their lives.. but rarley do women understand rape is about anger and that the sex is not the jolly he gets– they are going to also get HURT (or killed..) (So fight SOONER rather than later??)

    Men and women are wired differently– all respect to feminism..it’s just the way it is..

    And our culture STILL does nnot do enough to foster HIGH SELF ESTEEM in young women.

    SELF ESTEEM–THAT IS THE KEY and our behaviour as women follows that.. all of our lives!

    Solution: If you are healthy, Be a role model for young women, if your self esteem needs some help, become an activist, get therapy, hang out with other powerful women.. take self defense classes…

    A tough topic all the way around..

  7. Hiro – I don´t find your thought hard core, there might be quite some truth in it.

    As for rape situations – they´re different from a fight, so many times there is no telling for the woman when the situation switches. Remember that a high percentage of rapes occur amongst people who know each other. Friends, relatives… So, if your friend turns foe all of a sudden, how long would it take you to grasp the change and act accordingly? Would you be able to instantly defend yourself effectively against someone you liked and felt safe with just a couple of minutes ago? No chance, unless you´re really really trained, psychologically. Most women are not, especially since being feminine means being attractive and likeable, as in “nice” in our societies, not being fierce and dangerous and ready to hit back any time.

    Gang rapes are common as well, what chances would that give for a woman to fight back, and to what result?

    Rapists are not in for a “fair fight”, which includes letting your opponent know what you´re up to and let her self preservation mode kick in in time. Rape is a cowardish crime, not a sports game.

    So I wholeheartedly agree that instincts are everything, including the instinct to escape while you can.

    Geez, you are really feeding my mars transit in 8 these days!

  8. Not sure if it’s a strong Scorpio ASC or South Node in the 1st house, but my survival instincts are very good. I usually spot trouble coming at a distance and exit before it arrives. Staying aware and vigilant have helped me many times plus it is always good to learn how to project attitude that states ‘Not a Victim here’.

    Bet the Soldier could teach one heck of a self-defense class for women! 🙂

  9. …”or who have been abused don’t seem to have the same self-preservation wiring- some, mind you, not all.”

    all due respect Madelaine IMO wiring may not have everything to do with it.

    plain fact is abuse of the chronic variety, lousy caregivers or adult relationships, is simply physically tiring.

    although you might see women in your practice with eyes as wide a saucers, looking out of sorts, perhaps in a PTSD state, the brain is still ticking ~trying to work things out. SHE is still inside there, inside herself. just maybe she is difficult to reach.

    i say this not to be bitchy or anything, but just to share that other alternatives to “wiring” might be buzzing way below the surface of your clients skins.

    it took me close to eight years to escape my hell. however, during that time i was plotting and planning. it is something like a prisoner of war escape movie. sometimes to get to the good stuff (your freedom and whaever that may mean to you)takes a considerable amount of time.


  10. I don’t believe that ‘healthy’ equals immediate fighting back in a situation, whatever it is. This topic brought to mind a video I saw of Nazis killing people. There were probably 40-50 people brought to a field and asked to lie down, face down, and then they were shot systematically through the back (or head or something, hard to tell, but they were being killed). Most of them just did it. They weren’t bedraggled concentration camp survivors either – they were before that point. They were clothed and with enough energy to be mobile. Maybe 2 or 3 struggled to get away, by making a dash for it. That was it; everyone else died as they were instructed to basically.

    And I remember a video where some house invaders (I forgot the term) showed up at a residence, the video was shot from a security camera inside the living room and started with when they appeared at the sliding glass door. The three inside who were about to die were totally frozen, like rabbits in the grass or deer in the headlights. And they stayed that way and did what they were told to.

    This is one biological response to dire straits. It can be seen in animals so it isn’t a result of ‘abuse’, ‘dysfunction’, or ‘social conditioning’.

    A personal situation that came to mind was one where I was a teen and my step-brother and I decided to go on a late night venture that turned out a little too late (2 or 3 in the morning when we were walking home). A car with a crazed looney in it threatened us, then turned around to come back and ‘revisit’. We took a turn down a side street and while my step-brother was speeding ahead my legs became like concrete. I couldn’t run as fast as I knew I could, and this is because it was so terrifying…

    I don’t think this has anything to do with gender, it’s a biological reaction. I’ve been in other situations that weren’t so .. oh .. I don’t know .. visceral? and was able to maneuver out of them without the frozen biological response. I was older too. Maybe it is a training of the brain, getting it to detach, go from step to step, and evading the primary – animal – fear response.

  11. Rapes take place in a variety of settings. Most often it’s someone you know. Sometimes it’s a person who approaches with a weapon. Sometimes it happens because someone has drugged you.

    And I’d argue that yes self-preservation indeed kicks in too late in the sense that the person didn’t feel the warning signals of their gut not to drink that drink or go for that drive or walk down that alley or whatever. But, realistically, not fighting-back often is self-preservation. Victims will get away with their lives, or with a lesser amount of physical damage.

    Going back to someone’s earlier example of the Nazis and the Jews… true, but the Jews were marched to those fields at gunpoint and if someone had attempted to break away they would have been shot. It would have worked if EVERYONE had run at the same time in different directions because then someone would have escaped. But let’s not forget that people were rarely single in those fields. They were most often in the company of their children and friends and families, and a parent doesn’t always run if they have to leave their children behind.

    People play the game, make the best choices they know how. Sometimes death comes anyway. And sometimes cooperation = self-preservation as Schindler’s Ark and The Counterfieters show.

  12. I feel like rape is definitely about power. The rapist feels somehow very powerless and their own twisted little way feel they will gain it by making someone else feel completely powerless. I was almost rape and I did not know it was happening until he was on top of me and I was struggling to get him off. In retrospect, it was surreal. I would of fought to the death if need be. There is something that goes through your body and fight or flight instinct kicks in. I’m going through a transit with mars opposing pluto and self-preservation may mean surrender or fight.

  13. Sometimes, in the moment of violence, you cant/wont/dont admit to yourself what’s going on is what’s going on- thinking of a situation with someone you know and you are in shock that it is happening.

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