A few weeks ago when I was thinking about the shadow side of women and how they hunt each other. I discussed this with a friend who is into politics. The election had just ended and he watches all the political shows.
He told me he felt the whole culture treated women poorly all the way around and he thought it was heinous. He said the talking heads on the political shows, Chris Matthews and the like, did nothing but mock the women… all the men on the panel did.
“It’s disgusting,” he said. “And the women on the panel are no better.”
“They don’t defend them?”
“No, they mock them too.”
“Yeah, well I imagine they are in this man’s world. They finally got a seat on one of those shows and if they act like a woman, they’re going to be next!”
So anyway, on that last blog I told you my friend was “sweet”. I told you she was sweet twice! And I told you she was under attack. And I told you that she finally decided to fight back. And she managed to be effective, thank God. And based on the comments, this is not okay with of a number of you. So just think about that.
A woman is getting attacked. Repeatedly! She finally manages to get up off her back and get her own knife out to defend herself, and as soon as she does people (other women) want to characterize her as some kind of misguided psycho witch who is wasting her time. Excuse me????
How come no one championed her? Where are the “go, baby!” sentiments for a woman who fights back? If she stayed on her back to continue to be stabbed, would that be acceptable? I don’t think it would.
The same women who would attack a woman for fighting back would attack her for not fighting back. Sucks to be a girl, eh? But it’s fine to be a perpetrator and there is something horribly wrong with this. I guess she should defend herself with a feather or a dust mop or something. Would that be okay?
I used to use the sharpest knife I could find. Sometimes, tho’, that used to backfire if I somehow misjudged.
So then I decided to use my power and energy on myself, to make myself stronger. Oddly, I find I no longer need to fight… and if someone wants to start one, I simply walk away.
Boy, do people look stupid trying to fight a person who is no longer there over a one-sided issue…
Oh, I love you, Elsa, you just made me realize something!!
I didn’t read the comments about your friend fighting back. I usually read all your blog posts so I wonder what happened there.
This has been a huge issue for me bc I have a Pluto/Moon opposition and I’ve been living out of my Moon in Pisces. And can I say that it wasn’t the smartest idea? I’m trying to own that Pluto power in my chart and it’s hard. I’ve been discouraged all of my life to the point of hating myself for speaking my mind (Pluto in Virgo in 3rd house) and you bet that when I’m up against the wall, I can fight. I can make you wish you never met me. And I’m 5’2″ and petite. But most of the time I keep that under lock and key and it’s a bad idea, people. It’s a bad idea to emulate Mother Theresa and be all Pisces Moon, sugar and spice ONLY. I’m here to tell you that it’s just plain dumb and painful, too.
So, with all the love in the world, please take my advice: Fuck being sugar and spice, ladies. Fuck it. FIGHT BACK.
Oh, I have to say one more thing. A long time ago, I read that the great Jewish sage, Maimonides, said that when someone does you wrong, you have a responsibility to protest and to tell that person that he did you wrong. And when I first read that quote, I thought, Really? A responsibility–why?
And then I thought about it. Bc if you are nice and quiet and you keep it to yourself that someone has done someting wrong, that person will never know that he did wrong. Maybe he didn’t do it on purpose. And he’ll go around his whole life, fucking up and hurting others unwittingly. And don’t you think that when it finally dawns on him that he hurt people unwittingly, he’ll feel remorseful and wish he could undo the hurt?
On the other hand, if he did something wrong on purpose and you don’t protest, the person learns that he can do wrong and no one will stop him. So, your silence and meekness will reinforce shitty behavior and in the future, others will be hurt. In a way, you’ll be an accomplice in some assholes future wickedness. And you were trying to be nice by keeping quiet! But it’s WRONGHEADED, peoples.
I would say it depends on the situation. Sometimes finding the sharpest knife I have to carve them out of my life is the best thing to do.
Sometimes the person isnt worth the trouble. Sometimes (often times) its best to use as little force as possible. When attacked I used to be cruel.. I try not to be. I can leave someone feeling very wounded for a very long time.
I have found that just cutting them out and not having anything to do with them works best for me.
I do see that women tend to judge other women harshly. Its sad. I am fortunate to have found a community where we support each other.
I didn’t have time to read the other blog entry so I didn’t vote or comment.
Fight. Pluto conjunct Moon conjunct Mars conjunct Uranus. What the fuck else would I do? I do try to shear the sheep to suit the wind (because that mess is in Virgo) but usually I just fight right back.
I agree, women on the talking head programs do attack other women and don’t tell the men to shut the fuck up, I know as much as you do, which they should. They won’t because they don’t want to be labeled a bitch. I hate it and tend to stay away from those programs even though I’m a political junkie.
I’m confused, Elsa. I just read the comments on that blog post and I didn’t see the condemnation of your friend fighting back.
Oh, never mind, I see where you’re coming from.
Then please help me out, Marly or Elsa, ’cause I’m still confused!
Although I did notice some unsupportive comments, they were made by multiple people and no one seemed like they were “attacking,” per se. Are we lumping the disperate comments into a whole for example reasons?
As for the comments there, I don’t understand your friend’s methods and I had nothing to add so I kept my mouth shut. I can see the use of understanding your opponent, but I didn’t get the sense that she was actually fighting with that knowledge, just using it to predict behaviour. Maybe I got that wrong?
Anyway. . .
Another Mars in Libra here, conjunct Venus and Pluto. I don’t like fighting and I’ll switch up my methods – sometimes I’ll fight back, sometimes not. But I like arguing, and will always argue back or try to steer a fight towards an argument.
To me fight means a yelling and screaming match, where an argument is a calmer, more rational exchange (even though both may be equally passionate).
Mars in Pisces, too, Marly. I’ve been struggling with such things. I’m a Moon/Mars in Pisces, and had Pluto transits this year and last to them. Ouchy. I feel a bit better now but still raw. Even with my feisty Aries sun and Mercury I find it painful to confront people. For as much as I fight back, I fight myself back harder, because I can empathize with the other person, even if I hate them. Many times I wish I wasn’t like this–but I realize that I guess it’s normal for me to be this way. There’s some reason why I’m like that so I have to flow with it and not let the Pandora’s box of guilt and Piscean sacrifice tumble open.
Peace babies…whatever way you decide-fight, flight, somewhere in between–go for it.
I will politely try and avoid at all cost a confrontation—and when that is not possible I lose my temper and kill every last thing in the vicinity. I don’t NEED to be physically violent—my vibe can bring large men to their knees. I like this power, but I need to be careful with it, which is why I try to avoid confrontation. Her Majesty makes cars stop at intersections with one withering look, she causes offending penises to crawl out of site and causes confrontational students to crumple into balls of used toilet paper.
On women: Too many women don’t know what it means to be a woman. They are distorted packages of male power tactics in a male energy corporate world. But most of the women who post here do seem to know they are women. And I find that really inspiring when I’m slipping into an insipid giggly mode with the men in my life. A reminder. Thanks ya’ll.
Ya, the situation wasnt clear to me too, so i refrained from commenting on it.
I really don’t know what I wud do if i were ‘attacked’. i mean, it has never happened to me i guess. or may be it has and i didn’t notice!
I am trying hard to think….hmmmmm. Ok, i got something! I fight back. atleast express my displeasure. here’s how it goes.
ok, so i have an average physique. not overweight, but not slim either. so the guys frm my community, have to, have to hint that i am fat. it pisses me off immensely. especially the gender sterotyping tht’s involved in it- a girl needs to be slim but a guy can get away with having a pot belly! it makes my blood boil. and even if i had been fat, i don’t go about commenting on other ppl’s appearance. who r they to do it to me???
so earlier, i wud get all upset. be close to tears. but make it v clear tht i was displeased.
It didn’t help. so now, i have learnt to fight back. if they call me fat, i tell them tht they r bald and short and skinny, or whtever it is they are (no body’s perfect, thank god!) 😀
Wud tht qualify as a verbal knifing???
Mars in Aquarius by the way
correction to the earlier post: i find that it is mostly people who r insecure about their own appearance who r the ones to comment on mine. may be looks r really imp to them bcoz they feel tht they themselves r lacking in tht department! And u can imagine, i find tht doubly offensive.
I usually don’t consciously notice ppl’s looks. (i go more for how much sense they have up there :D). but i do happen to know exactly wht is their achilles’ heel. dont ask me how. 🙂
So now i hit them whr it hurts the most. Of course, i am fair. so i give them a warning. ‘This is the last time u said it without regretting it’ (hehe, i can sound menacing). I can’t see injustice.
i hate fighting – arguing? debating? those rock, but real fights suck, i just don’t see the point! you yell, i yell, we make each other feel miserable… it’s not like that changes anything.
but if i’m being attacked, that’s a different thing. self defense! or i’ll come to the defense of others, especially if they are unable or unwilling to stand up for themselves. i was always breaking up fights-about-to-happen down at the bar when i worked there. and just like Sylvia, it’s all in the words – words and tone and body language. 5’4, 115lbs can still be intimidating as hell if you deploy yourself correctly.
so i guess it boils down to this: fighting to get power over is a waste of mine time. fighting to establish power with, is a worthy cause.
errr, Mars in Cap, 8th house, cojunct Mercury
“Even with my feisty Aries sun and Mercury I find it painful to confront people. For as much as I fight back, I fight myself back harder, because I can empathize with the other person, even if I hate them. Many times I wish I wasn’t like this-but I realize that I guess it’s normal for me to be this way.”
Ditto here, HCSQ, and it hasn’t served me. At all. I have a t. Pluto opp. n. Venus coming up in a couple of days, btw.
i’ve got mars and scorp, and when i do fight back, people don’t forget it soon. i very seldom feel the need, howerver. most things i can detach from well enough for it not to be an issue.
with the other blog about your friend, i don’t know that it came off the way you think about it. you have all the info-who your friend is, what kind of attacks she’s had, how her response is measured to the situation, and you have your love for her. this is all in your assessment of the situation.
as a mere reader, i didn’t have any of that. i just you have a nice friend who is now plotting revenge on someone who has been mean to her, more or less. i didn’t comment because i have no idea how about any of it.
normally, the idea of hunting someone down for revenge leaves me a bit unconfortable, because to me/for me, it’s usually a bad idea. but i don’t know about your friend. i hope she’s able to get whatever she she needs out of the situation.
i think some of the issue is that someone just reading the blog will read something very different into it than someone who is involved will.
Ooohhh I can relate to you. I have the pluto moon opposition the opposite of you. Pluto in fishes and moon in critical critical virgo. I turn it on myself. And yes, the recent pluto transits have not been kind. I lost the job that I love yesterday.
As for fighting back, I don’t I climb into my shell. Mars in cancer. And then overanalyze myself and what I did wrong.
Ah, yes, good days…
Hm. I feel like I agreed with your friend. But I actually thought you were a bit vague about how she used her Scorpio Mars. We’s got no details, see… Maybe the comments implying an endless spiral of battle or ‘karma’ issues being at stake–which I personally do not agree with as a debating tool of right versus wrong–inspired your interpretation of comments?
Can I just say that knowing when to dodge a bullet before the gun has been fired is a very cool life skill to hone? It seems like your friend’s got it, Elsa. From my vantage point, anyway.
Oh. And I voted for “modicum.” Though I don’t believe it is linked to fear of judgement, not for me, anyway.
I care what people think of me, but I also know if I am not an asshole, I don’t have to worry what they think of me. And I have no control if they misunderstand me!
I totally see your point in wanting to fight back, Marly, and I support you doing so. I enjoy what you have to offer here! I was raised by a parent who preached the empowerment of knowing when to walk away. That some people will always need a leg up, and for that, we can be the bigger person for walking away.
BUT. If you articulate the need to fight back, I will never, ever step in your way. Because I am not you and can’t make that judgement call.
I’ve never been in a situation where I needed to fight, I don’t think.
Marly’s comment about a quote- responsibility, really resonates with me. Just read the history of the country I’m in and you would know why. Read “Hungry Ghosts,” or don’t, actually, it’s depressing how noone spoke up for what was right. I much prefer the US version of country forming. “you taxed us! we don’t like it! rebel!” instead of “oh, something happened, but we don’t talk about it” while their kids are growing up with no idea that massacres and other really stupid ideas occured right in their back yard.
I did not comment on the friend previously because, well, it sounds like she’s got it together already.
I was commenting on being predictable, because that’s what you asked about. I have no problems with women fighting back if they are under attack. Fortunately, I don’t have a fucktard trying to screw me over so I couldn’t see why I would ever need to study someone to that degree, was all I meant. I was not trying to cast aspersions on your friend.
“I totally see your point in wanting to fight back, Marly, and I support you doing so. I enjoy what you have to offer here! I was raised by a parent who preached the empowerment of knowing when to walk away.”
Thank you, Christine. I think walking away is the best option. But I’ve been in situations in which I wasn’t allowed to walk away. Or I couldn’t. Or the other person followed me and dogged me and wouldn’t let me be! (That happens too and it was awful and I still didn’t fight back.)
I can’t help but fight back, and I tend to (often unwittingly) be cruel or biting when I do. I almost never shrink from a battle when I feel I’ve truly been wronged. However, I absolutely hate to make public scenes, so it’s very possible that if someone were to injure in publicly I would curl up and say nothing until I could get them alone.
I have Mars in Leo, conjunct Mercury, Venus and the Sun.
When i was a child some girls were bullying me at school. They pushed and prodded me for weeks til finally i broke and hit one of them; one was sitting behind me and had lent forward to whisper some more abuse and as she did i punched her in the face. Well i have never seen people change so much, they were all over me after that and it freaked me out that violence impresses some people. There have been similar incidents scattered thru my life, not neccessarily violent incidents, just where people have tried to push me around thinking i’m soft. I’m pisces rising so i like to float passively through life, hate violence and look for the best in people. If i dont get it i prefer to walk away (i have a great antennae for sensing trouble) but if you follow me thinking i’m a soft touch i will turn. And bam you wont follow me again. Mars (in Sag) square Pluto…dont mess.
WOW this subject is near to my heart. Insecurity is at the heart of this subject. Women are horrible to each other and it all comes down to them not loving themselves or feeling good about their bodies. When you can embrace other women it’s a good sign that you feel good about yourself. Self esteem issues are rampant with women and it comes out in the workplace big time. I have been the whipping boy “girl”, when it comes to Petty Pink Politics. It did put me in touch with my victim issues so something good came out of it. But women have caused me so much trouble in the world place, you wouldn’t believe it.
Men find me very attractive. I am athletic and a natural blonde w/ blue eyes and have been told I’m built like a brick shit house. I’m over 50 now and aging gracefully and still I get the “looks” from women. I take care of myself and I take pride in myself.
Even at parties when I meet women they give me the LOOK. They look me up and down and then I see it in their eyes that they don’t like me automatically. I go out of my way to be friendly with these types and it pisses them off even more.
PROTECTION PROTECTION PROTECTION. I will side step a psychic confrontation at all costs, (I am a bit of psychic.) And I know that thoughts are things and they do hurt you on some sort of level. I “white light” myself when I see that vibe coming. And if I’m really in a fighting mode I will “mirror” my energy field and send the energy back to them. If women don’t love themselves why do I have to bear the brunt of it? It’s about insecurity, low self esteem and not loving oneself.
It’s time women got in touch with their dark side and stop spewing it on others.