Pluto In Capricorn: The End Of The United States As I Have Known It?

selectunitedstates.jpgAlma asks on “What Are You Worried About?”:

“Elsa, you said you are “worried about the end of the United States” as you know it. I would be interested in hearing more about this, as it seems to be a topic on many people’s minds lately.”

Alma – I imagine I will probably do that but I have to get my nerve up. Do you know how many people hate me as it is? Damn.

I have to tell you I avoid as many things as humanly possible and if there is any way I can keep my mouth shut rather than open it and get pounded, this is certainly the choice I will make. However there are times I just I feel driven to write and when that happens, I’ve little choice because I will not let energy back up on me. But they way it is right now, when I try to discuss this stuff with even my inner circle there is resistance so I figure it’s just not time. I will say this though:

Currently the United States ranks 23rd in math and 25th in science (or vice versa, I heard the statistic in passing). We used to be leaders and the innovators but that poor performance does not jibe with the level of self esteem we have in this country but no one seems to notice.

I have already stated I believe “parenting” is utterly and completely broken. The children have control and they are not equipped to make good decisions with all of their 9 or 10 or 12 years on the planet but lets not tell them that or anything… might hurt their self esteem!

We buy and manufacture junk.. we design things so they will break rather than last and just overall I think our society is rotten at the foundation and will topple with Pluto in Capricorn.

Americans won’t do menial labor and pretty soon they won’t be smart enough (math and science scores) to do the high end work so where does that leave us, hmm?

Unfortunately I could go on and on and on and on and on about this but…

What do you think? Anyone else want to stick their neck out?

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Pluto In Capricorn: The End Of The United States As I Have Known It? — 60 Comments

  1. There is a very long list of things that I would be happy to see the end of and there are also many things I hope will stay or even become stronger. The first list is likely to be quite a bit longer. Does that fit the I have some Libra and cannot decide model? I am rooting for Pluto though. The problem is if I start making the list of what I would like to see change .. well it would be a long list. It is good to see the Sea Change though, tide comes in, too far sometimes and then it goes way out and then….surfs up.

  2. However I frequently think about how disconcerted people (myself included) are by change.
    I appreciate what you are saying, Elsa, however I am the eternal optimist (Sag ASC?) and my knee jerk reaction is to believe that as we destroy some concepts we also create others.

    To make it clear, I completely agree that our society will topple. I just don’t know what our new one looks like. I fully believe we need to DREAM IT UP. (Can you tell I have Saturn Neptune??)

    I also feel like my opinions are flavoured to a large degree by the fact that I live in a city. I think life is very different for rural people. They need a car; I don’t. I have more access to people who are willing and able to barter for goods, etc.

  3. I don’t know where I got this, but it’s a philosophy that I like a lot and that makes some strong intuitive sense to me.

    It’s that there are – at a high-level essentially two paths to learning our life lessons and gonig through change – the “heaven way” or the “hell way”.

    And of course who wants to go through the hell way? Sometimes it’s just forced upon you, but when you think about it- and you have awareness, and you notice when change is upon you and then you make known to yourself a conscious desire “I want the heaven way” – a lot of times it can make a difference.

    I believe in the change that will come with Pluto in Capricorn. But I also believe the experience and the benefits that come with it will be directly proportionate to how aware we allow ourselves to be of the tide of change, and then to say ok, this is NOT comfortable, but here it is; and then to deliberately make the choice that we want it the heaven way.

    There is a lot of good to be reaped by Pluto in Capricorn – for exactly every reason you state. We can either be destroyed by the tide (I am borrowing from the metaphor above) – or we can get out our surf boards to enjoy the exceptionally big wave. And then we can be absolutely armed (with ideas etc.) and ready to go when it rolls back out.

    I don’t know about you – but if there is a chance to wipe out some crappy foundation and rebuild. I want my drawings ready. I want my land staked out. I want to know who’s with me in the desire to rebuild in a better way. I want the best designers, the best builders, and the resources laid out. And I want this to work and be better for everyone who is impacted. (And since the U.S. is a keystone in the global economy – I guess that could be pretty much the world.)

    And I think – for my two cents – as an intuitive person with strong astrological knowledge, you have ample and better warning than many people. So you have the advantage of a high vantage point, and so of more time.

    The question is not of whether to speak or how, but when you do speak – what will be the reality you will be consciously intending to help create.

    As one note – enduring fear never served anyone. Once the alarm goes off and you’ve heard it, it’s done it’s job. You’re awake. So ok. Now what?

  4. Elsa, I have read books (novels)on some of the pioneers of your country, and these people were really amazing. Your third paragraph sums up what I have been feeling for a while now, exactly. You can only float along for so long on past greatness.

    The country has incurred so much debt with the wars it has been fighting, and then you add in natural disasters (relief), as well as the housing crisis….as you say, it goes on. No I’m not American, but of course Canada is very closely tied economics wise.

    How will my country fare, if yours really goes down big time? Civilization have risen and fallen through time. Just because America has been great, doesn’t mean it will stay great – others will rise up to take its place. That is actually a worrying thought…

  5. Elsa, I am completely with you on this one (as far as you’ve gone with it here so far). I won’t comment other than that, well, simply because with my exact Saturn (2nd) return only a few weeks away. I am apt to simply rail. And when one rails, one’s words tend to make little sense to a lot of people.

  6. I agree with you Elsa but i also see the complete corruption of government and I can’t decide if I have just grown out of naivete or the country is truly rotting from the inside out. Bleak-I try to think of pleasant things and it is probably mine and everyone else’s apathy that has created the situation we are in.

  7. i think we’ll be forced to put our noses to the grindstone or collapse pretty darn soon.

    i tend to be more hopeful/optimistic… when push comes to shove we usually find a way to get moving. americans are pretty darn lazy when not pushed, though. nowadays.

  8. Althera- I agree with everything that you have said here. The wake up call is good way to think about this. If someone is unconscious, [or a great many someones] it may take them awhile to hear the alarm bell or smell the coffee. Hopefully they do. For the conscious, change can be very exciting, like waking up and feeling good about the dawn of a new day.

  9. Amen Spinner. Exactly. I feel intuitively – and have for awhile, that every one of us knows this. We knew this call was due. But a lot us (me included) didn’t know what to do about it. We go about our daily lives because that’s what we do know. But we know there’s more.

    I have feel intuitively – very deeply and strongly – that there is a connection between all of us. That we can draw lines on imaginary entities like maps, and say “this is Illinois” and “this is Michigan”. Or “this is the U.S” and “this is Canada” but that means squat. My lot is your lot. Throughout the entire world, forever and ever amen.

    I also feel intuitively, that there is a chance to help make this awareness a reality and a benefit throughout this little blue dot called EArth.

    And I think maybe (I hope) through this Pluto-Capricorn transit that there is hope for some rebuilding based on reality – doesn’t that sound like Pluto (to borrow Elsa’s convention – destroy and rebuild) and Capricorn (reality)? To me it does. Then again, I say this with Mars on the midheaven / 10th house. I am all about taking action on reality. Through words (Mars in Gemini).

    But regardless – the key thing is – I feel HOPE.

  10. Althera- I have Mars in Gemini too. Pluto is conjunct my midheaven at the moment and to tell you the truth, it feels pretty good, occasionally a bit overwhelming, but I am a good surfer. I am staying tuned to the etheric which is a different kind of wave. But you knew that, right?

  11. Spinner, I keep checking out my transits at Astro, and more things are becoming clear. But I still don’t know what that box means off to the side: it has C F M across the top, and F A E W down the left-hand side. Do you know what it means?

  12. Spinner – I did!:) Pluto is in my first house – so it’s somehow, I feel, almost as though it is in Aries. Pluto and action and words for me are like breathing. As you say, overwhelming, but also feeling pretty good as far as being a surfer.

    It IS a different kind of wave, I think. But for me it’s a hope wave. Pluto and Mercury are conjunct for me, in the first house in Libra. So it’s about a wave of action (Mars / surfer) and destroy/rebuild (pluto / overwhelming) that is due (fair / Libra). I feel it with my soul. This is a good thing. A needed thing. We will all feel happier / more in balance because of it.

    It may be hard (destroy / Pluto) but how beautiful (“fair” / Libra) is rebirth (pluto / pheonix archetype)? I think it’s the most beautiful thing possible in the world. We need this. And for years to come, I think we’ll be grateful for it.

    No pain, no gain, right? (Nietsche / my birthday twin:)).

  13. I’m w/whoever said civilizations rise and fall. No empire, along with its system of values and its way of expressing them, lasts forever. What replaces the older power structure and value system isn’t necessarily better. The people who will most likely get totally screwed in the process initially are those who currently have the least access to power and resources.

    If you look back at various “falls” in history and how that affects individual people, well it’s not really something I’d look forward too. Civilizations have risen and fallen countless times through history and as far as I can tell, we haven’t gotten the least bit wiser for it.

  14. Elsa,

    As astrologers we are accustomed to the nature of Pluto, the one which, drip by drip, takes down the former structures and causes them to transform. While the US is taking on a new shape, what with the Pluto returning to its place (29 Capricorn) in about 15 years.

    We saw what Pluto in Sagittarius was about: Jihad, The Meltdown of the Catholic Church, Suicide Bombers who believe in an afterlife much different than the Christian vision; many more images should come to mind which characterize the Sagittarian models of belief, religiosity and commitment to an ideal.

    Capricorn is about structures of power. How to mobilize the clan to reach the next mountain peak is Capricorn’s major spiritual contribution. How to survive? How to plan ahead? Capricorn doesn’t mind all the baby steps which slowly but surely gets him over the river or beyond the moment of low supply.

    We should take care to remember the Fall of Rome and how Empire after all, needs its generals and its central base of aggression.

    What followed this period in Ancient History, near the beginning of the Age of Pisces, were 8 centuries of “dark ages,” so-called by the Catholics embarrassed by a lack of bible-reading. Back in that time, the “light” came from the illuminated pages of the Bible, and since there were no books being printed, only copied in monasteries, there was indeed a dearth… I think however, the beginning of romance were taking place at this time. The history of the Dark Ages was populated by the lovers touted by the Troubadours of Cathar France. Many ladies enjoyed the status of being in someone’s heart, in this age of “darkness.”

    We are arriving at a new sort of darkness, a transformation of our social structures, something which will require an adjustment of our eyes to a new sort of light, somewhat “dimmed” in terms of previous experience.

    Dimmed? Intelligence, and brilliance as proposed by mathematics and science have seemingly been shipped out: The countries of Asia now have the world’s highest population of engineers and programmers, mathematicians and scientists.

    So, our “light” is dimming.

    Pluto the transformer is a model of degeneration which precedes regeneration.

    Nothing to fear, but the dimming of our “light,” which by some measures, may not be all bad.

  15. My worries have more to do with the hording of resources within our country (oil) by the corporate biggies and the lack of accountability by us .. big corporate structures now basically own the country.

    The price of gas is killing everyone and there is no monitoring of the people who have the gas. In other words, we don’t even know how much oil there is out there because we don’t monitor it! I am not finger pointing, I don’t like either party anyway, but what is up with that? If we don’t know how much they have, then they are totally free to hoard it, and look at what is happening.

    With the economic situation what it is, I don’t know if the country will even survive (as we have known it) long enough for these young school childrens genuine educational attainment (or lack thereof) to matter (0r not).

    I expect that, having already lost everything once (and then been enlightened) that I could survive the demise of the country as we know it but most people will probably be shocked into despair. Amongst our citizens, I also worry about inertia and unwillingness to take risks.

  16. Snap, CFM means cardinal fixed or mutable, and you know which signs those are.

    FAEW refers to the element (fire, air….)

  17. I agree with Claire Frances-Perez. The dimming may not be all bad. Listen to me. I feel my soul was built for this transit. Maybe I’m crazy. And maybe I’m not.

    Darkness is not all bad. I’ve always liked darkness. I’ve operated always better in it. Somethings – are not meant for the world, until the moment of their unveiling. But that does not mean that all the work done “under the covers” was not planned, intentional, and will not be awe-inspiring when the cloak is at last thrown off.

    But I will say this, without the best of all us of working under that cloak, there will be nothing.

    I know I sound crazy, but I also know I’m not. I know I’m brilliant in my way. I know I offer a light. I know I believe in the best humankind has to offer. I am built as a leader for this kind of transit.

    We can build a new foundation that transcends arbitrary boundaries. But then – I’ve never been a believer in Encyclopedia Britannica-drawn boundaries. I believe in a world community. And that this is our world community to build. And that we are born, each of us, as conscious creators. We can build the world we want, and this is our chance – how cool is that???

    Let the old world order fall. And let the world community arise. With the power to create the best humanity has to offer – if only we can forget our prior team alliances. That it is no longer about teams and states an countries. That it is about one world, one team. One consciousness, as a conscious creator. For me – it is like that moment in “Finding Nemo” where all the fish decide to swim in one direction.

    We can do that. No rule book saying we can’t. We can create the world we want, to last as long as we can have it. And to me, it’s an absolute shame if we don’t (conscoiusly) try. So let the human race go out with bang – when it must – but let it be our bang, let it be when we know it must go out. But not before, and not before we got to do what we can and came here to do.

  18. Usually the transits are red, the natal chart is black, and the progressions are blue and the solar arcs are green if I’m remembering right.

    Its just so you can differentiate what is what…

  19. Althera, I love that post you just put up. If you have facebook please imvite Loonsounds3 at hotmail, & let me know you are you, thanks.

  20. It is interesting, all this huge stuff we are discussing and I am sitting here going nuts because there is a fly that got into my living room somehow and I don’t kill things…. grrr, driving me bonkers… it’s the little shit that is going to make me crazy, not the big shit, but… What do do? Endure, I guess.

  21. Loonsounds (:::shakes head:::) throw a wet dishcloth at it – wet cause it doesn’t take as much effort, so you may stun but prob. won’t kill it.
    :o)

  22. Loonsounds, I think your last paragraph is key. That’s why I think we need to worry about what we are doing – individually – . . . and I think that’s why I don’t worry. Not to say that I’m an angel, but the more I work on being a better human being, the less I’m hit hard by these realities.

    I feel like in these discussions everyone’s so quick to say – well, everyone else is doing this or that or we’re so bad off, we’re so terrible, and it’s like . . . again, how is that helpful?

    I realize this is an oversimplification. But I’m SO TIRED of hearing “we’re all going down.” Meanwhile, the people saying it are hording away their goods or whatever, and doing nothing to really test their ability to move with the changes ahead.

    Argh. It’s not all doom and gloom.

  23. I certainly hope it will topple, as it can’t last much longer this way.

    I completely agree about parenting being broken. Not so long ago, when I was growing up, kids were kids, they played, they made a few mistakes here and there but they were their parents’ children. Today you can’t go for a lunch with people that have children without the little ones monopolizing the whole thing with their tantrums and their moods and their disobbedience. You completely stop attempting an adult conversation with their parents and just step back and put up with it. This isn’t a rant against children, simply a question: when did kids stop being kids and began being the heads of the family? Where is the respect and the family structure?

    And don’t even get me started on the buy-and-throw-away society.

  24. Althera – that model is right on. No doubt we learn our lessons one way or the other, but if we are smart we recognize we don’t realy have any choice in the matter – so we choose to learn voluntarily instead of being forced. The hell way or the heaven way.

    United States is on the verge of this and I sure hope we take note and choose to accept that change is necessary and voluntarily make those changes. The hell way would be a damn shame for a nation modeled after progressive change.

  25. Elsa, what do you think will happen to healthcare in the US with Pluto in Capricorn?

    Capricorn represents structures, systems, corporations and hierarchies – but for the greater good of the public in mind. With Pluto here, that would involve nearly every structure in this country from education to resources/energy to healthcare needs to change. And of course it should: the system abuses the public, and the public abuses the system. The corporations abuse their power and do not meet the needs of the public. But the public expects its needs to be taken care of and feels entitled. I mean, where else in the world can you see so much abundance of the best and yet so much waste? We throw away food to maintain prices! Whatever happened to the American/Puritan work ethic? Capricorn just doesn’t do abundance (like Sag) – it’s frugal and provides only the basics, but for all who honestly earn it. Perhaps we will head into an era of simpler living, but at least we may all have a chance to get our basic needs met.

  26. Oh gods the parenting thing I totally agree….
    – I see so much of it around, people want to be their child’s friend not a parent. It represents alot of the no personal responsibility that seems the masses are embracing.

    I’m having my first child here in Nov. me and my husband have both agreed, though we’ll let the child know he/she’s loved, we are not friends we are parents.

  27. Our lack of integrity as a society horrifies me. Cheating, rewards for bad behavior, accolades for mediocrity, and we pass that on to the kids. Arrggghhh. Isn’t integrity a Cap quality…standing on one’s own 2 feet (or 4 hooves as the case may be)?

  28. The slowing economy is evident here in Australia too. Like the US we have people struggling to pay rising mortgage costs. Our petrol prices have never been higher. And as a result of long droughts in some areas here our food costs have also risen.
    Officially Denmark and New Zealand are already in recession.
    So Pluto’s effect on Capricorn is likely to explode our ideas about hierarchy, government, tradition and any power structures. Do governments have something up their sleeves to stall decline? Hopefully they can cut interest rates for starters.
    On a brighter night the Full moon (partial eclipse) happens in 24 Aquarius conjunct Neptune this weekend – may bring deeeper insights and some new friends?

  29. Ah yes, the end of the US of A. Of course it was always going to happen. It’s time to jump on China’s bandwagon now, so I say Ni-how! to the great Red giant.

  30. When I get into these conversations people hate what I say too, because they are my age, and they don’t want to give themselves over to the tides of history and the new reality that is being invented by our children. Most kids are on the internet and they don’t have a problem with any race creed or color and they are not afraid in the least of their potential real estate or jobs as mathematicians being stolen by the great Brown Horde.

    The USA was sort of an anomaly to begin with, and the USA ‘as we know it’ was mostly a fantasy. We still “lead the world in math in science,” by the way, but the momentous lead we had in these kinds of things were based on a compulsory education system the west created and then lorded over all the other countries which had different geographies, priorities and intelligences. Math and science are not things you need to lead the world in anyway unless you are studying ways to either bomb the hell out of poor people or find new ways to screw with the planet.

    How are we doing in Agriculture? This might matter a lot eventually; a lot more than rocketships.

    Our kids are right now forming their ideas about the country they live in and what it means to them. What it meant to us is gone and is actually leftover from what it meant to our parents and the leaders who invented the meanings. The most important meaning their leaders wanted to instill was that we were The Best and Most Deserving of all humans and this was why God defeated the Nazis for us, and let me just add that these American Values are so far the ones that have given this “country” some kind of free pass to bomb lots of poor people and destroy the planet.

    There never was a USA. Not the one you mean.

    • Libra rising…isn’t this quite a coincidence you and I found Elsa’s post and decided to post on the same day 5 1/2 years later? As a ‘culture’ (*snort*) all those elements involved in exponential learning ie., telling time with a watch that has hands (not digital) cursive writing (art, self expression, thoughtfulness, patience) to name a few things that are necessary to create WHOLESOME life FOUNDATIONS are also crumbling.
      The main thing I’ve noticed on this thread is avoidance of the magnitude of Elsa’s post into la-la verbiage or symptomatic side-issues..not head-on as her post’s fertile dark soil begs.
      As a country we are fini. Done. Carl Jung seemed to have it right when he said (roughly) “evil wends it’s way up from deep below in one country or another, spreads, is defeated, then dives down again for a time”. Other countries get to feels their goodness once again, reclaiming sound values of family, brotherhood, (while attacked by evil) protection of water soil air. Those countries experiencing horrors (at our corporate greed life disregarding hand) prevail knowing they resisted corruption, mostly with unspeakable grief and loss as it’s price of rediscovering how fucking precious and magical life is.
      Everything CO-MINGLES. Like the story of the concentration camp prisoner noticing the beauty of a fish head in his soup..even though he had no hope in his predicament. Goodness/beauty intermingles poetically with horror..even outrageous humor! Not even duality, you know? Not this OR that it’s both..all, will always be gorgeous, moving, and suck at the same time 🙂 !
      Understandably, blame our mind’s limits while panicking. I’m panicking, how about you!

      • Have to add, other than disengage and simplify there’s not much imho a people like us can do while our own gov’t is dividing and destroying us. Including ground-up smarts and human values in our young. All anyone can do is turn to one another with our hearts intact and realize how precious life is. There are no guarantees in any case in the ebb and flow of life.
        Under sheer aggression there isn’t much a people can do. WWII saw 12 million innocents massacred, but this time is EPIC in proportion to what is unleashed in our time in the history of the world.
        Quite alright if you don’t “believe” me, but because Putin is not blinking while intending for evil to destroy itself..what leader is so wise and sophisticated to know that and walk the talk. Because of this russia will remain strong whether Putin himself is a sacrifice to it.
        Evil destroys itself always.

        • OMG, look at Elsa. Is she an example or what? Insofar as expressing the gratitude I feel while my heart pounds with warm (love, recognition) excitement at her wisdom and courage (which puts me to shame, but I’m teachable :)) Elsa’s honesty, deep tri-level richness as a human being is as good as it gets in this truth starved world.
          I can’t thank you enough, Elsa. Hip Hip hooray you exist!

  31. So…..it is now 7 years since Pluto started its trip through Capricorn.

    How does the United States look now?

  32. Back in 2008 (?), Glenn Beck kept stating that we won’t even recognize our own country a year from now.
    Well, it’s been almost 8 years since he said that. I look around at my country and….hmm.

  33. BRAVO ELSA, If people like you who have the ear of so many don’t speak up who will? We have one vote and it is sad to me that so many family and friends I know like to complain but don’t vote. Last year I read in some Magazine, “the pitch forks are coming.” It was written by some billionaire who said he has his jet waiting to get out. So they know but don’t care. Guess they think they will be long gone before, the u know what, hits the fan.

    • The USA has not had its full Pluto return yet and that will be a few years away. Then the regeneration should start happening. If we are lucky.

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