Okay here’s a problem for y’all. I’ve got a gal trying to break a long-standing pattern of opting to go with Danger Boy. You know the type. He’s got an edge, might be moody, definitely non-committal, intermittently withholding, secretive, etc.
Her problem is pervasive and multifaceted. For example, she has Venus in Aquarius trine a Moon Uranus conjunct in Libra which is clearly going to resist commitment so choosing these boys serves in that fashion.
Beyond that, she has Mars in Aries opposite Pluto in Libra so she drawn to the intense challenge and perhaps the pain as well but here is what she’s asking:
Has anyone out there ever successfully weaned off Danger Boy in his various forms and established a stable partnership? If so, please us how… and if you’re inclined, what drove you to change your ways?
“and from what you’ve told us, she has a lot of cardinal energy so she can work through it….”
Yes, a/ She’s a Aqua rising with a 12th House Cap Sun so there is some “sacrifice herself” going on along with “not good enough” that is not at the front of her consciousness for sure.
We can talk about her like this btw… she is a long time client and she wants this thing solved!!!
i am wondering how old she is ….and that it DOES or can get better as you get older i.e. she can change her pattern and her tendency, if she wants to. Does she want to? Is she ready? What does she want exactly?
My pattern was the unavailables and now I am with someone who is not my “ideal” but i can see very much how he has some things in common with my pattern but not everything — he is committment minded but really unconventional– sometimes you can’t go from the bad boy to the good boy but you need… stepping stones you know? or baby steps?
but it’s work (at least for me, with capricorn on my 5th) and takes tons of self-awareness, which she obviously has if she’s reaching out to you…
it’s not easy but can be done…
whenever she is drawn to someone, she must examine why… sometimes you have to second-guess yourself constantly if you do want to change…. and find out if he does or doesn’t fit the pattern
her venus in aquarius could also play out as “friends first” if she chooses to go that route…
mars pluto is a tough one. i have seen that aspect (as square or opposition) in a good female friend of mine. she is drawn to challenge and fight with (even become violent with, emotionally or physically) friends and/or lovers…..
Sometimes transits will set things off, for the good. If i were her, i would pay attention to that, especially where the slower moving transiting planets are in her natal chart… because there may be a time when it will be “easier” for her to examine what’s happening or to make change….
and from what you’ve told us, she has a lot of cardinal energy so she can work through it….
a. I didn’t think to post her chart and did not ask but when I hear from her, if she gives permission I certainly will. I just had this idea… it might give her hope to hear from people who have overcome something like this. I told her my story but you know. Mo’ is bettah! And like I said, she is working really hard on this. Busting her ass, I would say… baby clock ticking.
I think to some degree, she can’t fix the problem of wanting what she wants. She could choose the most boring guy around and settle with him and hate every second and be bored out of her mind! More likely, she’ll have to find a unicorn in a haystack- i.e. someone who is unusual AND yet somehow stable. Or maybe she’ll have to marry someone who spends a lot of time out of town so she doesn’t get bored. Or maybe she doesn’t get married, but has a long-term partnership where she lives apart from the guy so she doesn’t feel so shackled by commitment.
I like what a. said- you have to find someone who is at least SOMEWHAT fitting your old pattern so that you will like him, but he’s different enough to make it with long-term.
My friend Claire-France has a 12th house Sun and she lives it better than anyone I have ever seen in my life (and I draw 12th house planet Suns and Moons like nobodies business). Anyway, cf told me recently it was like having your Sun in the asshole however if you get it going you can light up some very dark places and she sure as hell does.
LOVE that METAPHOR!!!Sometimes it feels like my sun shines but in unexpected places 😉
I posted her for permission – can’t imagine her refusing since she is anon and all. Hold one!
12th house planets are really difficult. i feel this because my venus is in there (and t-squared)– it really is like being in prison and it’s a puzzle to liberate that sun (or whatever planet is there)… but must believe it can be done!
perhaps transiting jupiter will help? can help? at least give her the energy to… i don’t know…. it might help make her more approachable and give her the energy for knowledge to solve this…..
i have a question: according to her chart, is this something she can solve on her own? or does she need someone else (the guy) to help her solve it –i’m being reductive here, but i believe there are two different types, kinda….
any chance you would post her chart? or is it there and i didn’t see it?
I’ve delivered this message recently to a friend of mine who is going through the same thing. As I told her, and will say again now, it is offered with the best of intentions. My friend has said she has finally had her fill of this drama. My concern is, I’ve heard that before. With most anything, actions speak louder than words. Perhaps some of this might be relevant.
I think the question becomes: Does she love this type of person or does she love the pain this type of person delivers to her? What does this type of pain and drama reinforce to her about herself?
I’ve found these types of guys allow you to stay somewhat immature and infantilized, or even protected in a child-like fantasy world. They don’t challenge you to be a ‘grown up’ and interact with them (or even with yourself) on a higher plane. You, even though you might think you are giving everything and suffering to make yourself be seen as ‘good enough’…in reality, you can frequently be the one that has nothing to give. And they are definitely not giving anything, either. Since no real energy is exchanged or makes a metamorphosis into something else, whatever that might be, good or bad, the potential energy stagnates.
So, I’ve found the short answer is, make a conscious decision if you want to keep taking the pain and drama. And the nothingness. A whole lot sound and fury signifying nothing at the end. Maybe you do…maybe you get something out of it that you require. The ‘hunt’ so to speak. Maybe you (falsely) think these people allow you to exert some sort of fantasy control over your world and them. Whatever the reason…make a fully aware, as self-actualized as possible, adult, choice. As the cliché goes, life is short. If you want to stay with this type of person, take the pain and get on with it. You know the script already, and what it takes to interact with a person like this. If you really, truly, want to break this cycle, it’s time to put away childish things. Only you know what those things are, and if you are ready to do just that. In the case of my friend, she has a hard time recognizing when people are putting her though the needless pain that would be a deal-breaker for others, but we’re working on that. It’s a fine line, because you can’t play into their child script, either. They can end up looking at you as a surrogate protector, parent, and ultimate guide to tell them “what to do”. That can be a bad thing for certain types, because they turn off their own internal voice. I’ve found that I’ve had to help her grow, but at times step away, so as not to fall into the trap of reinforcing the ‘wounded child’ avoidance of personal responsibility. Or, perhaps, more to the point, not allowing them to develop into their own best protector.
i feel for her. Just so she knows she’s not the only one. That does help. And i’m sure many others will write to echo that–
my story: like i wrote before, the one i’m with now is a break from the past although some of it is still the same, it is better– it is a step forward
and i see my issues more clearly (and i have tons of neptune “problems” of not seeing things clearly)
and i had a lot of guidance, from trusted astrologers and other people– 12th house planet people need to get out of the dark hidden places and redeem those planets
She could make a list of the qualities she would like and stick to it – keeping in mind her astrological challenges. That’s what I did and i’m getting closer.
and i like what you said jennifer — you wrote what i was thinking…. the guy needs enough of the uranian stuff or whatever will excite her mars/pluto — and yet be stable and want what she wants and want to work for it or dream for it or whatever…
but where is transiting pluto now in her chart? where is transiting saturn? and where is the luck coming from? where is the stagnation? i do believe there are cycles we have to go along with, to some degree….. And transiting uranus, which should be so important to her chart….
Keyword: “choosing” – she has the control.
I look at it simply. If you want something else, something better, something more meaningful, just go get it. Now. Don’t dick around with what you don’t want. I’m sure a libra moon with any uranian aspect can look at their situation with cool logic and know that their current feelings are not the reality they want to create today. You have to know when to say NO, and it really is that easy. Since she’s a libra moon, a no but thanks anyway will do. You don’t need to be someone’s friggin’ emotional doormat.
I have my own share of this, and often it’s better to leave things at flirting and fantasy when it comes down to the fact that the guy’s going to be trouble in the end. You don’t have my defunct 12th house libra mars, so try this one:
“Wow, that was fun and you’re really great, but you need to get your things and get out of my house now. Don’t call me, I’ll call you.”
looking at the chart, i second everything i said. especially the last part.
This is all kind of stream of consciousness for me, as i look at her chart–
First of all, with all that aqu/uranian influence, esp the north node in aquarius, she has got to do things in her own unique way, which surely includes parntership. Others versions of what works for them may not help her at all. My guess too is that she is highly intuitive but does not, perhaps, trust her abilities, but that she can trust them…
So i keep coming back to wondering what she wants. She knows what she doesn’t want perhaps. But what does she want? With sun and north node in the 12th…. yeah, self-knowlege is hard won…
She’s just such an original thinker and person, and needs to be that way….
Her Venus has such nice sextiles and trines natally but isn’t that transiting neptune right there, right now, on her Venus?… a few degrees past but…. that tells me that seeing this stuff clearly now will be…. challenging and Neptune is such a damn slow mover and didn’t it just go retrograde?…. and then when all the planets start marching through Leo later in the summer….
And chiron is there too in aquarius, i would guess making all of this come to a painful point (probably particularly painful for a few years now)
in terms of what will help (and this is more stream of consciousness), i see again the friends thing. Venus in aquarius trine jupiter in the 11th house? that’s where she’ll meet him, in some kind of adventurous group… or unconventional kind of meetingplace…. and they’ll get to talking with mercury right there..
despite that 12th house sun, this is a person who needs to be involved, needs to be around ideas… travelling perhaps? to unusual places? (moon uranus in the 9th)—
okay, so let’s say she’s doing all this stuff and she still finds herself attracted to bad boys and she’s got pluto in the 8th. oy vey… and i am assuming they want her bad, with her venus in the 1st and neptune in the 10th, i’m sure it’s mutual…
interesting to me that saturn trines/sextiles her nodes, so it will take work to get where she needs to be, but she can do it… and then i spy the saturn/neptune opposition (which i also have)….
and well, transiting saturn is in her 7th house will enter her 8th soon enough. dang she’s getting the saturn/neptune issue all over her chart now, natally and by transit, including a saturn/saturn/saturn square which i think is still active…
All of this to say, it is frustrating. It is frustrating for many reasons. The transiting planets are hammering her–
i guess that’s my point here. It’s not her fault that it’s hard and that she’s working hard. These are core issues for her with that natal saturn in the 4th squaring transiting saturn in the 7th. Core issues that affect who she is and why she’s here, where she comes from, and what she wants out of a partner…. Examining her family of origin….
It is gemini season and the summer is here.. i would not be surprised if some opportunities come her way these next months. Perhaps she’ll get a chance to try out some of her new knowledge?
Hope this made sense….
In light of june’s comment:
Thinking back to various comments about Scorpio/pluto and Mars, and the need for an outlet…
Does she have other outlets, or is this her only one?
Okay, I’m gonna play Grasshopper here and let you all by my Masters, so I’ve got a question to pose to you about this chart: I’m very visually oriented, so the planet that jumps out at me is that Saturn in the 4th/Gemini. And the chart says it’s sesquiquadrate her Cap sun, which if I remember correctly implies a very specialized quality to its function. A very specialized way of shining her light into her home base. And I’m interpreting Saturn/Gemini 4th house as “a double standard”. I’m not implying hypocrisy, but rather that this woman needs almost two sets of laws for Home Rule–and they may be somewhat peculiar.
But being a Cap/12th, she subconsciously thinks she “ought” to be exhibiting certain standards of behavior, so she’s eternally frustrated when her genitalia says “Bad Boy!” but her Saturn’s not getting satisfied.
IOW: she’s playing by the wrong set of rules: someone else’s. And she shouldn’t beat herself up if she hasn’t discovered what these are because her own set of rules are going to look very different (maybe even superficially contradictory) to the Herd, and therefore she not likely to find a convenient example a life model. But she has to be Really Real about those Rules because she might be projecting the wrong set of rules (Neptune/10th) and thus encouraging men to think she stands for something she doesn’t. Worse, she’s believing the projection, too!
So what are her Home Rules? That’s what I want to know.
And if I totally have my head up my ass about her poor, semi-isolated Saturn, then tell. I am the Grasshopper here.
Its hard for anyone when relationships are so important for the native while at the same time so is ones freedom. I Guess freedom can also be determined as individuality. In many cases of hostile dependency the person usually finds a way to break up and then get back together. It could be breaking up and then finding another partner that does the same process.
In this persons chart there is a great deal of work involved. The family of origin work is a priority if they wish to break repetitive patterns in relationships.
The kind of attachment issues are appear to be avoident or at least dysfunctional. The person may have learned their patterns and retained them at deeper levels. There is also a rebellious element for this person where selective hearing and resistance is the way to dumb down to continue the relational patterns.
Issues such as trust in relationships may have least of all been developed and the chironic wounding around mars is defended sincerely with over adapting and a sense of getting things perfect in the relationship. The relationship may start out in the perfect sense however the old issues arise once again. Perhaps the person enlists the hurt and badly treated partner which is an outlet for saving self, saving ones own sense of injustice by supporting the underdoggy partner.
How can the person develop trust in relationships, deal with her own historical woundings, develop a “wholer” sense of identity and be open to practicising different kinds of relationships? It seems like a tall order however not impossible if she really needs to. We all attract the wrong partner for the right sort of experiencial learning at some stage. In my view it would seem a good plan for this person to develop a working relationship with the part of her psyche that doesn’t want relationships and the part that does. That will be easier when the “noise” of her family of origin or possible faulty beliefs about self and life subside.
Perhaps in the end its a matter of accepting a different kind of relationship to the one she thinks she “should have”. With someone who allows her space and freedom and love at the same time. Because thats when the trust factor will offer healing to her soul.
WOW, JS, that was amazing, seriously. I feel smarter now.
Interesting post. It kinda clicks with me. I myself have been challenged with trying to travel beyond my attraction to the guys with more of an “edge” in favor of the more available/partner sort. I made a list of all of the (reasonable) qualities which a man must have before I would consider marrying again and although my current guy meets all of these … I still feel “something” missing and haven’t committed to a definate wedding date or such.
My mother tells me I’m just not used to this sort of man and being treated as I am. As well, I’m struggling with whether or not I even know what love is or whether I believe in it anymore. Whenever I’m feeling unemotional towards him I stay because I know he’s “good” for me. I do try not to pass on all of my emotional baggage to him – he’s a very good man. I’m hoping that I can heal and not potentially screw up a good thing. Never thought I’d be in this situation. As the other posters have said, though … baby steps. I know I’m doing better and just have to keep on trucking. Btw, Neptune Sag conjunct AC opp Saturn in Gem/7th. It’s always been real challenging for me to see my intimate relationships as clearly as others seem able to.
Anyhow, best of wishes for you (and others with this prob)!
Largo, FL. USA
mars/pluto is/can be rape and violence symbolism, uranus sudden events, I think this lady needs to claim her own energies regarding these symbols or an external event could come into play in order that she do so. I think it’s Stephen Arroyo who talks about this with planetary symbols, the symbols can manifest as an internal psychological event or if the person isn’t getting it, the symbols play out as an external event otherwise sometimes known as “fate” or possibly projection. Good luck!
I’ll tell you how I solved my problem. I don’t have any Aquarius, but I have energy similar to hers–Venus/Uranus/Pluto conjunct, and a lot of Libra. Obviously, her Libra wants to be with someone, but Aquarius and that Moon/Uranus conjunction isn’t going to want it in any sort of “normal” (whatever that is) way.
Her Capricorn is craving stability, while the rest of the chart is screaming at her, “NO WAY!” Saying this is tough to deal with is a HUGE underestimation.
I used to attract emotionally absent men, who were content to give me the space I wanted (Venus/Uranus). However, it was too much space, to the point where there was no relationship. That wasn’t satisfying the rest of my chart–a 5th house Leo Sun, and the Virgo Venus/Pluto.
Maybe she should look for a Virgo or a Capricorn. Earth signs aren’t known for being “bad boys”, and those two signs will be more than happy to give her the space she needs. I married a Capricorn, and while there’s things about him that drive me up the wall, giving me my space isn’t one of them. He doesn’t hang all over me, and I appreciate that.
There is only one way to cure the addiction to Uranian bad boys; discover your own unique identity. Once she understands herself and her mission here, she can push on to create a more stable life for herself.
One thing that jumped out at me right off is your placement of the nodes of the moon, extremely close to the AC/DC.
Since it is the NN rising, that might suggest that these relationships are your default habit (SN on the 7th cusp, if you are a believer, the habit comes over earlier incarnations), and that this lifetime is supposed to be more about you focusing on yourself, developing your own independence, and feeling empowered to stand on your own.
If we think of it this way, NN opposes SN, then we put Elsa’s indeas about oppositions into play. I think she said we need to attend to both ends of an opposition. So ideally, yes, it would be much better if you pick a relationship which does not consume so much of your energy.
No idea about the astrology, but there is an excellent book by Harville Hendrix that may help:
He talks about the “imago” theory and how we are unconsciously attracted to certain people in order to grow and heal. His theory is that relationships are primarily about transformation. His model of relationship suggests that people are most attracted to an ‘unconsciously’ selected partner (an “imago”) and this attraction is meant to catalyze a transformation in us and our partners. It is in growing and relating with such a partner that we can finally heal and transcend our problem. This is why it is so hard to change such an attraction or to avoid, it is meant to happen until the problems are finally resolved with such a partner.
According to him, you cannot make such a change entirely alone, with partners who don’t trigger you or attract you on such a deep level, or with uncommitted partnerships. Transformation only occurs through relating to this type of partner within a committed setting because that is the only type of person we are attracted to, who we recognize as having the particular kind of love we need, who we can accept love from and who can trigger us in just the right ways to transform and heal us. We are unconsciously attracted to the negative traits of such a person much more strongly than the positive traits because it is the negative traits that trigger us – and we need this specific kind of pain in order to transform!
I haven’t weaned myself off ‘Danger-Boy” but I have weaned myself off of “Emotionally Stunted-Boy.”
It took years of crying and a sudden moment of crystalline acceptance. Just fucking stop. Yes, it is that easy. Play the field as long as necessary…you knowing the warning signs. Just do it; you will feel better!
I am still trying to get this ruler thing… Can anyone explain why her chart ruler would be Uranus, in the 9th?
Ruler of the 7th house in the 12th house – others are invisible. I think she needs it this way to be free to live her Sun in the 12th house and her ruler Uranus in the 9th. A conventional relationship is not for this kind of placement. But she can articulate the invisible, what does not exist – and thus bring it into existence and make it visible.
Me <— 12th house sun, Uranus ruling planet, heavily cardinal chart. It took me 12 years to wean myself off Danger Boy. If I had to point to one thing, I'd say that the more I worked on myself, the more I grew, the more I realized that Danger Boy was in fact a giant sucking hole of need, covered up by his act. Did I want to spend the rest of my life taking care of a needy child who refused to do his own work? No, I did not. It took a long time to come to the realization, but once I did, it was relatively easy.
I want to add that I’ve spent a lifetime of trying to make myself accept dysfunctional men as-is. Once I began to focus on what I actually wanted in a man, it became much easier.
Been there, done that. Actually, I think most women have at some point in their dating history. That’s why books like ‘He’s just not that into you’ are so popular. This kind of thing cannot be healed rationally. You can’t ‘think’ your way out of it. One needs to heal old belief systems, which are largely unconscious drivers, and there are lots of ways to do that. EFT is a great one. Hypnotherapy, counseling, and Ho’opononpono is a very good one too.
I’m super Uranian, and had lots of boyfriends like that. I figured out that among other things, Uranus is primarily run by fear (Stephen Arroyo talks about this)which is why Uranian types are so afraid to commit and why we end up with non-committal bad boy types. Figuring out what the fear is driven by is the key. For me, I figured out I was terrified of being abandoned, in more ways than one. It was a huge key to my release.
Great Thread. I obviously need a lot of work on myself, but points are well taken. I have Uranus square Sun and work surrounded by pilots – so there are different types of danger. To fly an airplane takes a certain amount of chutzpah that not everyone can manager (I know I can’t) – but they always have seemed to like talking to me, and there is a comfort level there. Dad was a pilot, I grew up surrounded by them. I also have a lot of friends in the telecom world (more Uranus).
Like I said – I am not an expert – have my own problems with this – trying to work through it….maybe she can find a guy with a highly functioning attribute. Dad has Uranus Square Pluto exact in his chart – but because of Saturn at 29 cap had a high degree of ethics…so maybe if she can’t beat it join it – but from a more highly integrated standpoint…Dad is a Virgo btw and the comment on the earth signs is probably right on. That is what I am looking for myself next.
Not sure if it makes sense to take advice from a woman who has not successfully navigated her own trecherous waters (me)- but I will say that when I own my own male energy I have attracted great male friends even though I don’t have a traditional relationship.
Moon-Uranus conjunction in Scorpio connected to 8th house with airy Venus and Mars. I’ve successfully weaned myself off Danger Boys (which are really Comfortable Boys in disguise) after realizing that my fear of commitment (which is really fears of abandonment and boredom) made me habitually pick them. Facing the root why of your behavior helps. Then draw on your Mars strength to pursue the guy who will meet your needs to be in a relationship (because Moon in Libra *does* need that) with space.
I have Pluto Uranus Virgo 7th. I like that intense, Scorpionic energy. I find it sexy. I have Venus Aquarius 12th, but it’s Conj Saturn and my ASC. I think the Saturn helps me to want to partner, but the Aquarius has made me way too forgiving of their faults.
My problem has been these guys are attracted to me, and it’s Pluto immediately wanting to own me. They immediately want to spend every second with me. I gave in even when I knew they were wrong for me. I love the freaking intensity.
I have decided that I will no longer settle for anything but the best relationship FOR ME. I am in charge, I am the boss. I will not settle for something I know is not good for me. I’m working on it…I’m working on it!
I am with the camp that votes that she needs to find a guy who is a healthy version of weird/exciting, as well as maintaining her own “freedom”. And does she feel commitment-worthy?
Realizing that I do NOT have to repeat the same pattern, that I can have healthy relationships, and then basking in that goodness…like finding out that this healthy snack is tastier than that crappy snack!
Cold Turkey is no way to quit. Gotta replace, and hopefully, with something better.
Good luck to her!
well, for one, i realized danger was often a sign of immaturity and unwillingness to face adulthood.
i also got sick of being lonely and not being able to count on the guys for anything. i wanted a partnership, someone with whom i could be stronger than i was on my own, and vice verse.
and, well, the guy i found was in many ways a grown up “danger boy” so i didn’t run too far from type. but he’d grown up. (just don’t expect to be able to push someone into growing up. not going to happen.)
I thought I had weaned myself off Danger Boy. He seemed really stable and secure and the there was a hint of bells ringing for the future. But he was a sleeper. And it almost lost me my life.
She’s got such a great Jupiter in Saq (best placement) and the fact that it’s in the 11th conjunct her Mercury makes me think that one way out is for her to gather together a group of smart friends that she can vent to and get feedback.
If she isolates she will be more dependent on the guy – with a support team of friends his power will be minimized.
Also, with Uranus conjunct her moon in the 9th maybe she does need to change locations. Or find a job that involves travel.
I don’t feel I can speak to the astrology, but I’ll chip in my 2 cents as a former Diva of the Danger Boys. 😛
The more genuinely interested I got in my little ol’ authentic self, the less interesting and alluring the Danger Boys became.
Easy to say now, with plenty of hindsight and time to reflect. It was a halting and gradual evolution, with plenty of backsliding along the way.
Heck, it’s not like the impulse ever vanishes either. I could walk into a room today and unerringly hone into the ‘zap-zap’ of the bad boy, scamp, rogue, the brooder, the rager, the party animal; the misunderstood artist/musician/writer, the misunderstood playboy/giant of industry/family man; did I miss anybody? Oh, him? sure…I can zap-zap spot him, too. ;D
But these days it feels like I’ve got better things (and men) to do with my time and energy.
Hi Elsa, How I got over it was to realize that what I was looking for in these men was something that I wanted for myself. In my case a sense of powerfulness, aliveness and actually a sense of spiritedness that I thought I could not have myself. I thought the only way to get that was through a man. Now I have developed these more in myself and I no longer am attracted to those kinds of men. Also I am a more deep and interesting person and I don’t scare people away with my neediness nor let them control me with it because I have fulfilled myself.
This from a venus conjunct uranus in 9th, square moon which is conjunct neptune in 12th, woman.
Ps venus and uranus in late cancer, moon and neptune in late libra. (Void of course moon)
they can give your history a backstory, but you’re just a blip on the radar…
they forget who you are astonishingly fast.
oh, and you didn’t tame them. They’ve run that story until it’s polished smooth, right down to the aw, shucks.