The idea a woman is better off without a man seems to me to have peaked in our society. Women are realizing they do want a man. They’re having all kinds of trouble figuring out how to manage this between the other things they have to do and the fact that a large number of men have little or no interest in marriage.
I think the pendulum is going to swing back now. People will realize it’s in the best interest of both sexes to get along.
I specialize in seeing trends ahead of others and getting people in on the ground floor. I have been going on about this for several years now and I am back again to stress this: Start thinking about what it is reasonable to expect of a partner and how you, yourself can offer value to another because like it or not it is men and women working together that sustains a society.
Absolutely right. Great topic.
“working together” -does that include discussing rather than blowing up as to why my bf has a passcode on his phone now?? and then changed it after he knew i saw the code?? WTF
I want a man who’s good for me.
I had more to offer in the past, than I realized, and I was more cooperative, once I got past my shyness – it was the men (one in particular), that went weird on me, or just disappeared. I will never forget that one long-distance guy, when I was twenty-two, suddenly making the excuse that he couldn’t talk to me anymore, because he was getting rid of AOL for his email… he’d made no move to actually meet, hadn’t asked me for my number, but had said, “I want to say the ‘L’ word, but…” I did forget his name, though. I almost just called him Ryan, in an effort to remember – it was Ross, and he was an Aries in graduate school.
My mistake was being too shy, not knowing how to drive – my being so isolated – and that I freeze when approached, unless I’m doing something like trying to find the owner of a stray dog. then I get all chatty and floopy, and end up being pulled through a neighbour’s back garden, by a three-legged dog that hops in place if you try to stop it from pulling you, and meeting said neighbour as he got out of his car with coffee and the paper. It’s easier for me to get to know people via email or something like that, first, just for a little while.
This is a tough question, Elsa, and very thought-provoking.
Most of my girlfriends who never married long for a committed relationship. They’re tired of being alone.
Most of my divorced girlfriends say they aren’t likely to marry again. They’ve really raised the bar on the kind of man they would marry and don’t want to compromise anymore.
Many of my married girlfriends say they would never marry again. Probably two-thirds say no, a third say yes, they would marry again.
Sounds like a lot of disappointing relationships, huh? The ones who seem the happiest are the divorced women who feel strongly about never marrying again. They’re vibrant, independent, and tons of fun. They rarely mention being lonely.
I’m pretty sure that my married guy friends would marry again, and most of them quickly.
Does this mean men benefit more from relationships than women? I don’t have the answer. I’m just pondering the question, and hoping you’re right about how it will all turn out. It seems to be mid-aged and older women who are longing for more equality in their relationships. I hope the women in their 20’s, 30’s and 40’s can get us there.
I am currently married, it’s my second marriage. I often wish I weren’t married. It’s hard for me, it just doesn’t come natural. I’m more comfortable single. I knew that when I got married this time, but I thought I could make it work. So far I have, but at the expense of my happiness and internal peace. I have a great husband, it’s just something in me that is uncomfortable. I’m not looking for other men or anything like that. I’m just plain miserable when married.
It was provoking…
Especially in SOCIETY where more and more choose very different Partnerships.
Also woman and woman or man and man can marry each others. It’s partnership issue.
Saturn in Libra is also awakening us to the blatant social engineering that has pretty much succeeded in breaking up a most powerful force, the synergy between man and woman. Who do you guess gained from that?
Thankfully our swing back will empower everyone and fortify the the home, our place of peace and nourishment from the nutty world. Sorry, though, it will hurt the economy, especially those connected/affiliated with the family court gambit. Their industry stranglehold on lives will not be given up easily.
Very true. Though I think some individuals really aren’t cut out for marriage. People’s families are very weak in American society right now and the time’s ripe for a course correction.
But am I the only person who’s thinking the pendulum’s going to swing way far back in the other direction? I’m not entirely happy about this. After all, the FLDS has excellent family values, and they stick together like crazy and look at them. Of course, that’s a bad example and I’m probably worrying about nothing. I think I’m a bit of an anomaly, and something’s probably pretty wrong with me, relationship-wise.
Maybe if more women acted the way women are supposed to act, they’d all be happier. I don’t know.
good one! 🙂 my venus&mars are like this conected and happy. l belive that we complement eachother and l wouldn’t want to be allone even if relationships are work, it pays off in the long run!
l see this around me people are kind of lost, they don’t know why they should be in relationships anymore. Do women really need man?? etc..sure they do but they don’t realize it. And men? yes they too need women. Maybe l’m a romantic but l tink relationships really help you get more civilized/grow up in a way because the other mirrors things back to you so you have to grow.
Also, I just realized that some of earlier post probably came off as passive-aggressive and rude. I’m sorry. Consider it merc-retro foot in mouth disease.
“Maybe if more women acted the way women are supposed to act, they’d all be happier.”
What do you mean by this? I didn’t realize there are rules about how anyone is “supposed” to act.
I was being a little sarcastic, but also a little sincere. Maybe “more traditional” gender roles are better for women or society as a whole. I sure don’t know.
Also, maybe my reaction had something to do with being exposed to a lot of fundamentalist thought where there are rules for how everyone is supposed to act- there are rules for everything.
…but that wasn’t the point of Elsa’s post.
I would venture a guess, responding to many of the latter posts here, that some of American and possibly European society’s current decay has to do not with the need for men and women to fulfill their traditional gender roles, but to be *honored* for them. For these traditional divisions of labor to be respected and seen to have value. I know Taurus typically is the Venus sign concerned with values but with Libra here as the Saturn figure it’s spotlighting how we relate personally and as a society.
The cheap kicks we get from rampant consumerism don’t compare to how good it feels to be raised by a stable, tight-knit family and community. I have many LDS friends and while I strongly disagree with their politics and policies regarding “black sheep” in the fold, I respect them very much for the strong communities they build. I was minted in 1983 and some of my most stable friends from my generation have come from Mormon families.
I was married…sometimes I LOVED it…but most of the time I felt I was not appreciated and was taken for granted and had to jump through hoops to get attention and love sometimes. Is that really love? Newly divorced and fear for my future, but now I have NO choice but to carry on. I don’t relish the idea of dating. I do relish living a full live come what may. I will not wait for a man to do them with me. I have an Aries 5th house and none of my previous boyfriends have ever stuck around. The came on fast and left just as fast once they felt the air came out of the balloon of good times, fun and games. The only one who stuck was the man I married and I waited 11 years for him to propose. After that our marriage took a steep down hill ride until I decided to leave. And now I leave it up to fate. I think there MAY be a pendulum swing back to marriage as being popular, but not for a long time. Ever heard of “Ashley Madison”? I was not surprised to here of this website and know a woman who lost her husband to someone on that site he had an affair with. How can men and women keep from being tempted when enablers are out there? It’s like telling an alcoholic not to pick up that drink. Good Luck!
I would be happy if the society supports men the way they could have a decent working day- good salary – time for their family and working environment to support their good mental and physical health.
In a perfect world the families would live a better life;)
Nice pray, or what?
imo people do better when they’re committed to something. a partnership is a darn good start.
Deep inside, there was an idea that I could be a perfect “wife” as sanctioned by society. Patient, hardworking, submissive, kind, takes care of 5 children, loving with her husband, will bear all kinds of hardship just to be together, act girly and ladylike in public, pretend not to have a brain but plots ambitiously secretly together, lets him act like a spoiled child and pateralistic man all at once, while she’s sexy and acts cute to get her way, but makes the same money and has an education like an equal professionally. Have I met women like this? Yes. Have I dated men who want Asian trophy wives? Yes, and if I could do it, I would. But I discovered first-hand that I can’t do it. Don’t have it in me. Might be missing the wife gene.
I know that I have almost zero odds of marrying, but I have made a lot of effort to be who I am today and taken a stand against unfair social roles, even if it is against the mainstream and acceptable to most other women. They are welcome to their happiness with these wonderful pillars and motive forces of politics and society. It is indeed REALITY. And it slaps me in the face every day, by men and women who think I live on cloud 9. I do. I believe it’s my role to maintain some of my ideals and not compromise everything just to fit in.
Living in a very traditonal Asian society I have heard this perspective all my life. But truth is I just don’t have the capacity for it. I tell every man I date that if this sort of woman is what they are looking for, please don’t waste his time and find another date. If they want friendship and sex with someone with a brain and won’t put up with their shit, then stay.
I have too much going on and I value individual perspectives and values. Frankly, I’d rather set fire to myself and die than be beaten into submission. I’ve come to terms with the fact that I’m not a mainstream cup of tea, and honestly have no choice in it. Always been an outspoken, independent woman, and if a man cannot deal with my need to have ambition, so be it. I love men, but they would never choose to marry and deal with me when there are 1.2 billion women next door who have absolutely no problems with any of this and do it with enthusiasm, love and joy, with cute kids to boot. And there are another 3 billion just a short plane-ride away in South East Asia and Eastern Europe. Do they live in horrible conditions? Some, not all. Some are absolutely fantastic, and I would marry them if I were them. I mean this.
How many people do I meet who tell me I’m a stuck-up, elitist bitch who will never get married? Do I care? No. I’m just me. Saturn, Uranus, and Mars in 7th.
Posts like those from Dawn, and others, about feeling more alone in their relationships than they did being single – those comments make me glad that I spent my time on other things. It’s just that my life has been out of balance, and I did enjoy certain boys and then men – being around them, liking them, but then for one reason or another, they went weird on me.
I was just coming back here to say that I doubt I will get married now. I’ve had that fear over the past two years: that I just won’t meet anyone. I wish that I could cut off the longing that became really strong, as my progressed Sun conjoined my progressed descendant. I have progressed Sun/descendant in range of my natal moon/venus, but nothing yet. It’ll be closer to Venus in a year.
@Shaina: “I would venture a guess, responding to many of the latter posts here, that some of American and possibly European society’s current decay has not with the need for men and women to fulfill their traditional gender roles, but to be *honored* for them.”
I would agree with that.
Also, my comment was not intended as a slam against the LDS. (And the FLDS is certainly not the LDS.)
And if those in person, didn’t have the patience to get to know me (thanks to my shyness), then they weren’t for me anyway. One Aries boy waited until I’d been over here for two weeks, and was then moving to the States five weeks later, to ask me out. I’d been there for *two years*, and he hadn’t asked me out – had dated a blonde girl instead.
Either they were intimidated for some reason I can’t think of (unless it was because I wasn’t throwing myself at them, like the other girls/women) I don’t know. I just want to get back to enjoying my own life again, and not freaking out about getting older, and being alone.
It might be true that the younger people will marry but I doubt I will. I think about this with a mixture of sort of, regret and hopelessness. I watched the women in my family struggle and be strong without their husbands for most of my growing up years and what’s imprinted on me is that if you’ve lost your chance to be partnered after 40 — that’s it, time’s up.
My grandmother remarried in her fifties and then he died five years later. She was very poor, her kids took care of her — and basically, you know, this woman’s life was not that great.
My mother was a widow and never remarried. She was really unutterably alone for the rest of her life after she turned 41.
You just gotta face some things.
I read this post several times. I need to understand this.
Relationships have caused me no end of grief. I am one of those divorced women someone mentioned who is independent and much happier without a burden of an unequal/unfair/non-respecting partnership.
That being said, I need to get off the Internet now and wash dishes, laundry, sweep and sew; then mow the lawn, take out the garbage, fix the car and open that jar of pickles.
Elsa,
You said, “It’s a bit of a mess right now but Saturn in Libra is going to straighten things out tremendously over the next year. Reality is here and it’s harsh, especially if you’ve been disconnected from it for a number of years or even a lifetime.
I specialize in seeing trends ahead of others and getting people in on the ground floor. I have been going on about this for several years now and I am back again to stress this: Start thinking about what it is reasonable to expect of a partner and how you, yourself can offer value to another because like it or not it is men and women working together that sustains a society.”
It’s a provocative post this one, and from the comments here, it’s not one easily accepted. I was married at 24 and stayed married for 24 years. My motives for marriage were based on survival and would under-go transformation before my divorce. I’m re-married, and transformation about partnership continues. Right now, my husband and I live with a lesbian couple sharing their 5 acre farm and berry lifestyle. We three women are from the professional feminist clan and we are old now. Anita, you put it pretty clear. We have a dozen ducks and three hens to feed and handle, land to maintain, water to filter, gardens to tend, cars to wash, faucets to fix, buildings to build, fences to mend, dinners to cook, and money to make. One man fills in at very key junctures. I’m married to that one, and in the large picture we need him and he us. I need him and he needs me.
Different male/female cooperation, but it’s what we need to work.
@ Peppermint: Our small version of Findhorn
Not the right person to comment here, since partnering just comes naturally to me. In fact, I think it may be the one true talent I have. 😉 I have a Sun/Pluto/Juno conjunction in Libra, the 2nd house. This is who I am, a partner. In love, but in business too. Right now, I’m happy being able to finally call myself a wife. But I’m also very sad because the best work relationship – and yes, this is a guy – I’ve ever had is breaking, at least for now. We’ve learned a lot from each other, and I have this feeling it’s not all there – we’re bound to do more in the future.
Needless to say, Saturn is currently hitting my Libra (right now, the conjunction to Pluto is most exact, but it’s moving towards Juno).
I will only marry if I find someone I want to get married to.
If I can’t find that person, then I just won’t get married. That’s where I’m at and probably always will be.
It might be a little lonely, but I think it’s better than having sham marriages just so I can have that support and backup. I hate divorce, so if I get married, I want it to be with someone forever, so it really really has to be the right person.
I don’t know… I’m really tired of all this FWB sex and living together and crap. It’s really destructive and annoying frankly. It’s like can’t you control yourself a little? I dunno… it’s just like no one really wants to commit anymore. Everyone wants it easy and fast and no one seems to know how to deal with problems and working together to get over them.
Marriage is HARD, which is why no one wants to do it anymore.
It’s much easier to live with each other and then move out when it’s no longer convenient.
It’s very hard for me to figure out what is acceptable behavior in men and what is just the way they are.
From Elsa I have learned: don’t treat men like they are your girlfriends. They don’t function like women do.
But then I look at my ex-fiance and I wonder, was I expecting him to be that for me? He didn’t make me feel stable, but maybe him with a Taurus Moon in the 8th and me with a Libra Moon in the 3rd needed such very different things that we couldn’t satisfy each other. I know I didn’t make him feel stable either. I bet both of us were trying really hard in our different ways and neither of us knew it.
I want so badly to be partnered that I’d be willing to listen to just about anything Saturn has to teach me so you can bet I’m reading just about every thread on the boards about this. :-/
I’ve seen both sides too. When my marriage was working – that is, when we were both working to make it work – it was a fine way to live. I wasn’t in love but I absolutely valued what we had as a UNIT and a partnership. The things we achieved in those years we could in no way have achieved on our own.
When it began to die on us – when he got tired of the responsibilities basically – it was just awful, deadly lonely and to be so lonely and still feel trapped is a killer. I definitely prefer to be on my own than to live like that.
Given how self-centred so many people are now, how far they believe in their own entitlements, I think people will still marry but will continue to throw in the towel when the going gets rough (as it does more often than not)
Also, I think people often lose themselves in marriage. I think just because you are married, you shouldn’t give up who you were before completely. I think it’s bad for people to have all the same interests and hobbies. Man’s night out, Ladies night out, those are awesome things. If you can’t trust your partner to let them go and be themselves, I don’t think there is a point in being married in the first place. Maybe I’m just different. I don’t plan on doing every little thing with my partner.
I also think that women tend to judge each other. Some of the comments here really pissed me off. Like, why should a woman be looked down upon as silly and dumb just because she prefers to stay at home. That doesn’t make a woman dumb, it just means that’s what she wants to do. Of course either extreme is bad, but I’m really sick of women touting themselves and “independent” and “above it all” just because they went out and had a career. I’m not dissing career women either, I’m just sick of the bashing. Either side has positives and negatives.
Men want to protect women. Men want to be the provider. Men want to be someone to lean on. If we take that away what do they have left? There is no point to men being strong anymore. And that’s IMO why men are usually lazier and don’t bother to do anything anymore.
Maybe I’m just traditional, but I do believe gender roles have their place. Women can still command respect while being a woman. I’m sick of all the women who go out and say they are “being like men” when really most of them are just acting like douches for lack of a better term.
That’s just it: I’ve been all set to do my best to get through rough patches and bad times, I just didn’t want to be messed around, and I’d like to be partnered with someone compatible. Hell, the taurus contacted me when he wanted support for something – did the, “I really do love you, you know” crap, told me it was fine that I couldn’t communicate with him for a while, due to my own feelings – and then bitched at me and threatened suicide, the first Friday in February, because I wasn’t there for him. I was taking care of myself! the douchebag hasn’t been there for me in any number of ways (so different from before), wasted my time, broke my heart, and then, then… expects me to be there for him, whenever he needs me? He won’t admit to mistakes, and shoves it all on my shoulders, but I’m still supposed to be there for him.
I would have made one hell of a partner. Now, I vacillate between feeling that way, and feeling too bitter and sad.
Actually, a lot of men don’t want to be taking care of anyone, anymore. They want to be free, and sleep around – unless they flip over someone. I remember the Taurus at first – I felt so lucky to have met him. Ha.
During my agoraphobic time, and when my social anxiety was worse, I was afraid of attracting someone who would be controlling, and see my issues/situation as the perfect setup. I’d also heard of more than one spouse who freaked out after their partner became more independent, when they were used to them being housebound. I was open to it, if it felt right, but I was still wary. Ross upset me, even though I had wondered if he was playing on my sympathies here and there, and I refused to say anything like “I love you” until I’d actually *met* him.
I have to go, but I do enjoy these conversations, even though they also upset me at times.
@Salali – But this hasn’t always been the case. The so-called “battle of the sexes” has been happening for a long time. After a time, anyone would just give up. If a man doesn’t want to take care of you, what’s the point of being with him in the first place? That’s my thought. Why pick a man who’s not like that?
Right now I’m not exactly what to say about this, except that we have managed to create a society where the women act like men and the men act like women.
i have mars venus conjunct in capricorn 2nd house (also close to cappy saturn in 1st)- mix of too independent and too needy?! i really love the work of relating but usually find men that take it all for granted and feed into my insecurities, especially re commitment – any advice/hope?….
“any advice/hope?….”
The number one, first thing to do is to define what it is you want. If you’re on the fence, you’ve got virtually no chance of getting something to come together.
you’re right. maybe you have to get it so ultra-clear that when you express it (maybe just to yourself) there is no room for doubt. and have higher expectations/’wants’? being so cappy relating-wise (tho aquarian sun).
i think it’s a problem with boundaries too, no surprise there…
Someone just mentioned planets in 7th house.
Astrology seems to work interesting ways by 7th house…
I have cheiron in aries in 7th…
Does it mean “to be always wounded” in every partnerhips?
I have found important to select partners, because they stays in house of “your enemies”.
Some people are born to walk alone!
I feel that the 7th house can be seen as mankind. There are a lot of humans out there needing help.
Difficulties lies in limits who you can help:
Help must be asked, Help should always payed back, and there must be equality in rules of sharing.
Sounds harsh?
Now when mercury starts retrograde in leo (ruler of the house of love), it is easy to mix love relations (having fun!) and partners of marriage.
But my partner SHOULD be ready to die for me;)
Not a nice partnership at all!
I prefer to love – to have fun….
I have Chiron in Taurus in 7th and I would say YES, Helina.
starkttn, I love your post and relate to it.
To be honest, I hate hearing stuff like this because no matter how much I might want to partner, it truly does not feel like an option to me that I can have in this lifetime and isn’t meant for me. Which means I am left out of the world and society because it’s not okay to not have a partner past age 22 or something. (Or in my family, 18.) Is that fair? Should I be ostracized for not settling with my deadbeat ex who still pesters me every year? Hey, at least that way I’d have a man, right?
And I’d just like to point out anyway that well…there are a lot less desirable men out there than there are women, so how the hell is a woman who wants a husband who didn’t catch one in her 20’s supposed to find a good one? It does seem like your odds go down. I am rolling my eyes at my mother’s boyfriend’s behavior (it’s pretty obvious that he wants out already, but he seems to want her to take the hint and he won’t dump her formally) and the man is 65 years old. She told him what she wants, he told her he doesn’t want it and yet they still are “whatever.” It’s like dear god, they NEVER grow out of it.
“Start thinking about what it is reasonable to expect of a partner and how you, yourself can offer value to another because like it or not it is men and women working together that sustains a society.”
An excellent thought,will act upon it 🙂
egiyablu, what I’m saying is that there aren’t nearly so many to pick from – or so it feels – and it’s depressing. It’s also annoying to think that I would have had a better chance ten years ago, when I was 26 (I know that’s stinkin’ thinkin’, but that’s also pretty much a reality, it seems). I was scared sh*tless, but would have open up if anyone actually seemed to like me, and made an effort to get to know me, and I didn’t want them to disappear. I also just let people go without asking anything, though, because I wasn’t going to bug them.
Helina, I’m acquainted with someone with Chiron in the 7th, and she once said that she had been ridiculously lucky in love. She might lurk here, but I’m not sure. Last I heard, she was happily married.
Salali -you are right.
Never think some planet/astroid in astrology indefinitely mark anything.
And I am divorced – It means that I’ve been married once…
I maybe should have just tell my feelings. Because that’s what they are…
I’ve never been the type to think I’m better off without a man. I’m always the type to know I’m better off without a boy, though. 😉
What Saturn in Libra needs to do is help connect the people that WANT stable, happy marriages. No more of these people who pretend they want to be married, snag someone who genuinely wants to be married, only to make them miserable, and then leave or have to get kicked out.
I am actually happy that I am free again now because I think this is my best time to actually find the stable, mature, loving marriage I have wanted since I married the wrong guy the first time. That is what I want, and I’m hoping Saturn in Libra helps me get it.
To all those insincere about marriage, I hope Saturn in Libra helps you to stay single!
To those of you who are happier single, I say enjoy yourselves and don’t feel pressured to marry just because Saturn is in Libra!
@Salali – Well, logically, if good women still exist past 30, good men do too.
If people believe what crappy men say, then yeah, I can see being discouraged. I’m still young, but I definitely see crappy men and good men. It just depends on who you want to focus on. Sure a lot more men in your age bracket will be married, but I don’t think that means that there will be NOBODY LEFT.
Men who marry 20 somethings when they are older ARE NOT the types of guys you should want to be with in the first place, IMO. So why even bother feeling upset with it? I’d feel more sorry for that girl who married him.
I think before anyone says that men are crappy, they should make really, really sure that they are not crappy themselves. 🙂
i was happier without a partner until i found someone i really really wanted to partner with.
i think knowing what you need and want is absolutely essential. ie, figure out your mars!
@Elsa – Are you directing that at me? I’m not saying ALL men are crappy. But there are a lot of crappy ones, just as many as the good. I don’t think it’s wrong to feel that way or to say they are crappy. Because they are. Is it wrong to have standards just because you are not perfect?
Of course no one is perfect, but there are always limits to who is good and who is not good for a relationship. I think it’s unfair to question whether or not someone is crappy just because they believe there are crappy men in existence in the world at all.
“@Elsa – Are you directing that at me?”
No. I am directing it exactly as written (“anyone who says..) and it was meant to he a help not an insult. I am sorry it came across as personal to you.
The first part of your comment did prompt the thought to cross my mind but I did not even read your full comment so definitely not personal! 🙂
Oh no, I wasn’t meaning it personally, I wasn’t offended, I was just wondering if it was a response to my comment. Sorry about the misunderstanding, lol!
I’m not crappy, either. 🙂
egiyablu – I’m just saying that I’m not meeting anyone. That’s all. 🙂 I haven’t met anyone – isolation has been one problem, and I usually had someone interested when they knew me, as well as all sorts of disgusting attention from those who didn’t. I had a much better attitude about all of this until the past year.
The player/FwB thing has just spread and spread, and most men seem to be going for those who are younger. Much younger, or 33 and under. You know? I don’t think they’re all a-holes, because I know the bitter men are wrong about a lot of women (although there are a number of them out there, like some of those they complain about). I don’t know. Sometimes I feel like I’m talking into a fan, as Elsa or satori mentioned here recently, trying to get across that I don’t hate men, but I’m coming across an awful lot who seem to fit the above, and I’m not the only one. I feel like I would have made a good partner, and I still could, but right now, I’m rather jaded.