Capitalism, Competition, Tolerance Of Violence – All In The Blood

It could be argued I have more nerve then sense.  Most of what I want to talk about is risky if not completely taboo. I don’t know what to do about this because like, Jessica Rabbit, I am drawn this way.

Most who read here know I’m interested in what is deeply rooted or in the blood. When you’re talking about blood, you’re talking about race – a HOT topic. We’re supposed to pretend there is no variance between the races even though evidence to the contrary is in my face every day.

I’m constantly baffled by other people’s thoughts and deeds. I chalk this up to my childhood (my roots) which was unusual. But now I wonder if it’s just that I’m Italian and the people who baffle me, aren’t. I wonder if my drives and various feelings about things might be rooted in thousands of years of history. If this is real, it is a big thing to know as it would explain so much.

Various cultures have rules but I grew up in the melting pot that America where all the cultures came together. I’m American on one level but on a deeper level, I’m Italian.  It could be said, my head is American but my blood is Italian. My instinct is Italian. I’m beginning to understand it is not reasonable for me to expect that people accept the things I accept to part of life (like violence) just because I do.

As an example, if someone rapes someone, it is perfectly okay with me if men band together, go capture the offender, bring him in, try him and kill him. This seems normal to me. My head can argue but deep down, this is acceptable to me and easy to understand.

Is this because I was born in Arizona aka the “old west”?
Or is it because I am Italian in which case the history goes back thousands of years?

Italians are also super ambitious and competitive.  We’re empire builders, as my husband would say.  We want to do things on a grand scale and just don’t believe in half-assed anything.

Recently I was reading about, Versace and there was not one thing in the story of that family I could not relate to.  Last week I watched, Da Vinci and the Code He Lived By (History Channel).  Da Vinci, was a born a bastard and he was driven. 60% of capacity is not enough. It’s 100% all the time and I feel exactly the same.

I’ve been criticized for it, called a work-a-holic but this is my nature. It’s my nature, not a disorder.

When Michelangelo came along, a rivalry sprang up between he and Davinci and my thought on that is, of course!

I’m constantly confused as to why people don’t seize opportunities that seem to be laid out in front of them to my eye. Why don’t they capitalize, I wonder? I’m now playing with the theory that the difference between me and them is in the blood.

I’m not suggesting my blood is better than another person’s, only that is is different. I place a very high value on individuality and think it imperative people express themselves as individuals. One person paints, one person writes, one person bakes the bread, one person designs clothing, one person is an accountant, one person fights the wars and so forth.  A strong, vibrant society results from this diversity. The idea that some are excused from performance and others subsidize them is repugnant to me.  Everyone is here for a reason and self esteem is gained when people pitch in with whatever they have to offer.

To add the astrology, everyone has a Moon in their chart. Everyone has roots.  My roots are Italian – Cowboy – American.  I can’t escape this. I also can’t expect people to feel as I do, to be deeply driven and so forth. I am catching on.

What is in your blood? Where is your Moon?



Capitalism, Competition, Tolerance Of Violence – All In The Blood — 80 Comments

  1. I should have added, Versace had a rivalry with Armani. Everyone (of my ilk) know that competition is healthy and raises the bar of achievement for all.

  2. Scorpio Moon in 6th conj Neptune – ancient British Celtic on my father’s side. My mitochondrial DNA originated in what is now Turkey in the Caucasus Mountains.

    My mother told me when I was a very, very small child that I was clairvoyant and that it “ran in the family”. Runs on both sides of my family, actually. A great-great aunt was called “the wizard”. My nickname for my father was “the theologian”.

    That’s how I see things: mystically, metaphysically, spiritually. Pluto and the Taurus/Scorpio axis is prominent in all of our charts, even my daughters’.

    My dream for the rest of my life is to become a hermit in the woods, foraging herbs and communing with God out in nature.

    About the men banding together: that might be a “men being decent men” thing. Down here in Alabama, sometimes men who commit heinous crimes are found buried in massive fire ant beds.

  3. Parin, that was damned interesting, thank you. My husband has a curse in his family – up to an including illnesses, that skips a generation that repeats. The cursed are also the psychics.

    My family has a criminal mind the extent of which is jaw-dropping regardless of what side we operate on. None of us look the type either. 🙂

  4. I am coming to understand that just because blood races through my veins when I sit at a card table… this does not mean anyone else at the table experiences anything even remotely similar! This is a big shock, LOL.

  5. My family is a travelling family, both are in public service i.e army or navy or sea merchants we can date this back to at least 150years. 50 years ago we stopped moving and settled and thats when trouble began. But I am the only one that decided to move around and luck has changed me and my own family.

    When I was a child I had a dream that my Great Grandmother came to me and gave me a letter and then told to move to Europe her birthplace. I did, even though I have never meet her. Strange thing is that I have actually found members of her family when I was invited over for dinner my friend husband is my cousin-ish my great grandmas g.g grandnephew and told me our real family history. The missing piece.

    Moon In Pisces. Very Celtic, Portuguese and New Zealand tribal (Maori). Always going to love and follow the mystic side of me.

  6. I have Native American mixed with Irish, Scottish and a smidge of German. When pissed and on the war-path, I feel sorry for my enemy… Cappy Moon 8th house = Grim Reaper… I’ve said it before and I’ll stand by what I said, “I don’t want to hurt my enemy, I want to DESTROY my enemy.” You could be right, Elsa, it seems to be in my blood and chart… Good thing my little ol’ Venus in Pisces, the Fish in the deep well, speaks up for the underdog and feels it’s wrong or I’d be in 24 hour lock-down.. One of my exes said I was like a rattle snake. Leave me undisturbed and I’m mellow, but piss me off and I bite!

  7. :). I love this. I get so envious and enchanted with people and their roots because I don’t really have any. I mean — I do but they’re obscured. My father committed suicide so I did not know him and my mother and her family really could not ever relate to me. I can’t say that they didn’t like me, but I was foreign to them, and this has kind of been a theme for me all my life, being foreign and not really fitting and not knowing exactly why that is.

    I’m tempted to get one of those kits where you can check to see where you really come from, but you need a male DNA donor to find out about your father’s genetics.

    🙂 Scorpio moon, conjunct Neptune.

  8. The bio on Davinci, was fascinating. He is portrayed as a person who realized very young that he was screwed having been born a bastard in the era. He realized he was going to have to kick ass to get out of his circumstance which I relate to very strongly as I certainly knew I was screwed growing up myself.

    This era was just something else with the two artist and meanwhile Christopher Columbus is sailing to America.

    Italian people have a lot of confidence and it’s incongruous with the currently promoted way to be American.

    Another example is Rocky Marciano.
    He retired undefeated and it’s as if this is frowned upon now. Being the BEST that is. People attack rather than cheer.

    I miss Muhammad Ali! I miss boasting and heroes and such. This stuff inspires me. I miss Mars in general – daring – conquering – prevailing – innovating.

    You have to push ahead to come up with something like the Colosseum. You have to let talent run unfettered and we just won’t allow that these days. All the focus and resources flow to the weak rather than let the naturally rising tide lift all boats. It doesn’t work.

    • I see this in the educational system every day! It is a crying shame and it causes everyone to sink. No Child Left Behind really became No Child Gets Ahead and we all suffer due to the loss. I had so many students quit plays after no getting cast as leads this year, but you really can’t have 20 Annies or Alices, ya know! Hoping the pendulum will swing soon

  9. My father was a ship captain. And was his father, grandfather, great grandfather… all the way back. Danish. Many Scandinavians took on Christian names. Our is an old Viking name that is connected with the sea.

    My mom’s family were farmers from Holland that came to the US. Her mom died when she was an infant and the women on her father’s side were nuns. She spent a lot of time growing up with them and planned on becoming a nun. What else? You do what you know. But they kicked her out. They said it wasn’t her calling. She liked to drink, smoke, and flirt with boys.

    So, nuns and sailors for me. Moon in Taurus in the 5th, opposite Sun in Libra Conjunct Uranus in the 11th. All squaring Saturn Leo in the 8th.

    As far as competition, I not only like it, I need it. I love competition and I think it is a very healthy thing. I respect and admire my competition for their work. Doesn’t mean I still don’t want to be better, but I wish them no ill and love to see the bar raised. It gets me fired up to push myself harder. Love it! Maybe that is my Sadge rising.

  10. Hey Elsa I wonder if you’ve seen this show:

    You can watch them online and they’re also free on Hulu. Turns out Brooke Shields is a *princess* and part of her history is Italian I think. I watched it and thought, yeah, kinda figures…

    The rest of them are really interesting too. If this show is on regular TV I don’t think genetic inheritances are too objectionable to the public. 🙂

  11. I’ve never seen it, eva. I don’t watch TV at all. I get videos from the library if you can believe that. I grew up without a tv and never got in the habit. It just never occurs to me to turn on the TV so I am pretty out of the loop.

  12. I thought about this a while longer. I wonder if mars also has a legacy component to it. You learn from your family what to fight for and also how to do it. My mars is in leo making good contact to the sun and a crappy contact to the moon — but the reason I fight, if I ever do, is usually for pride and since it’s in the eighth house is usually very strategic and stealthy. I learned all that from my family, who were like this whole royal court of backstabbers and doubetalkers. Manipulators. Man, oh, man. Political. My mother was like the queen of this. They weren’t really evil, but that is how they were made.

    So now, you know, at this point in my life I have to be fricking *out of my mind* pissed to tell somebody off. Pretty different from the Italian way I’m sure. Where I came from, you didn’t get into it with someone, you spent years plotting their demise. Lol.

  13. “I miss Muhammad Ali! I miss boasting and heroes and such. This stuff inspires me. I miss Mars in general – daring – conquering – prevailing – innovating.”
    @Elsa- I feel the same. There was no match for Ali’s bravado! “Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee…” Now THAT’S rich! It’s sad what the repeated head blows did to that man… But in his day…

  14. I think there is such a thing as American blood as we are a country of immigrants – people who have ambition and higher than average tolerance for risk. People gamble everything they have to get here (including their lives in many cases) and these people have bred over the years.

    In other words, it is certain Italians, certain Irish, certain English who are here and they do share qualities such as love of freedom.

    That said, the other qualities are also valid… but deeper, I think which is what I was trying to express with this post.

    • Well, that drive for empire at the founding of this nation, used slavery and genocide to get there. I think focusing on the perceived pros and ignoring how much blood it costs, is kinda disingenuous.

  15. I was super super ambitious and accomplished a lot! I’m glad I had the opportunity and I’m sad the country is muting itself.

    I also miss Muhammad Ali and Howard Cosell 🙂 and all the shit-talking old men I grew up with (customers in family diner).

  16. Moon in cancer in the 12th, conjunct Mercury. My roots are totally obscured. I know I’m a mish-mash of various northern Europeans who came to the USA several generations ago, then my parents immigrated to Canada. I’m actually just getting into trying to dig up my roots, hoping to understand my own drives and desires a little bit better. Have some names in the family bible, but not much else. Irish, Finnish, German, & English I know for sure, wouldn’t be surprised to find other blood mixed in at some point. Names but no stories makes it hard.

  17. Have Pisces moon 23* in the 10th opposed to Virgo pluto 29* in the 4th. Roots are off the Mayflower Rhode Island swamp yankee on both sides. I’m lucky my eyes aren’t crossed.
    Just recently moved into an 1850’s town house to open a millinery shop. A few months after I took up residence the local paranormal society paid me a visit under the guise of ‘customers’. They confessed the hat shop had a serious history of hauntings, had I experienced any activity? I reported besides doors opening and closing, odd knocks and the occasional manifestation, everything was pretty normal compared to some of the other old farmhouses I’ve lived in. Apparently the resident ghost(s) summarily scared the pants off and evicted quite a few residents. The psycic said, “Well you’ve got good roots and that’s why they like you here”.

  18. I recently subscribed to your blog because I’m trying to learn more about astrology, but I was disappointed by the ignorance shown in this article.

    Race is a human construct, not a scientific one. There are no genetic differences between the “races” other than those that are a factor in skin pigmentation and other perceived “racial” differences. Race is, literally, skin deep.

    Many people notice that they share a similar temperament with close family members or with people from a similar cultural background. This is due to culture, not the romantic concept of “bloodlines.” Is there a genetic factor? Maybe, but clusters of genetic traits do not fall along “racial” lines either.

  19. My moon is in Aries, 3rd House. Conjunct Jupiter but…Square Saturn (7th House – pfff wish it were somewhere else…), opposition Pluto (Square Saturn). Lovely T-Square that probably has pushed (and pulled) me to transform…

    It is about fighting to survive.. My grandfather was a Polish Jew, he survived the war. If he hadn’t survived, I wouldn’t be here, I wouldn’t exist. I owe him so much for this life of mine. My mother used to tell me about him, and his love of music and languages. He was a tailor. He died at 56 when she was just 16. He’d fought all his life to survive and yet after all he’d endured, the only thing my Mother talks about, is how he loved her so much. Like he had always kept faith in humanity. This Love and faith has been with me ever since – and has helped me face some of the difficulties i’ve had to face to survive, especially as a child. My mother told me recently he was Aries. Could this be a coincidence?

    My blood is French (2nd Generation) – but what does it mean? Sure, I stronlgy relate to the motto “Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité”. Tolerance is part of my nature – I forgive and understand that hate engenders hate – but we were all born innocent. When I was about 25 I decided that my goal in life was to become wise, or acquire wisdom, because I felt so torn inside and wanted to find peace of mind. (Pourquoi tant de haine?) Didn’t realise then this was my ascendant Sadge speaking. I’ve lived through the most psychic experiences (living my unconscious consciously), recently, ending a 25-year long toxic relationnship with my stepmother – that – as she uncounsciously yearned to destroy me because I incarnated this love of life – would invariably say with a smile – “It’s amazing what a survival instinct, you have ! ” understand it “It’s amazing that you survive me”. By the way, my father after marrying my mother who was Jewish, married my stepmmother who’s father was a German made prisonner during the war!! (Well, she’s the pervert and toxic one, she chose him for the symbolic, and to negate his past with my mother – the denial continues…. And living far away with my father and stepmother, I had to (she made me) negate my own mother to be part of this new family. I feel so guilty, it hurt my Mother so much, and me too. But the link was never destroyed and now after calling no one “mum” for more than 25 years, I call my Mother again, “Mother”. And it feels so good. I think I made a bit of a disgression here from the initial topic, but nevermind…that damned T-Square with my moon, again…

    On my Father’s side, they were also migrants, but further down – a great great grand father, a Swede, another from Italy. All fled poverty. To become merchants, teachers. I was born the same day as my great-grand father, and have the same risign sign as his wife, my great-grand mother. Another coincidence?

    Oh, and my sun is in House 4! who am I, where do I come from?!

  20. :). Hi Anna:

    Ninety percent of the human genome is identical to every other genome and therefore indistinquishable from any other. However ten percent is heritable, and behavioral tendencies — “temperament” as you say — have been proven to vary according to genetics.

    Here’s a little page on some studies about that:

    One illustration of how heritable traits can make a huge difference in a life expression would be in dog breeds. Man there are a lot of dog breeds, but they’re all dogs, and ninety percent of their genome is identical too. But that ten percent makes the difference between a poodle a rottweiler. This is just really interesting, because each of the breeds evolved to be successful in their environment over a pretty short time period considering the span of evolution.

    I’m not saying human beings are dogs, but in terms of our physical expression on earth in space and time — there has to be a physical counterpart to the variations in human behavior and appearance – in other words, if you’re different on the outisde, or your behavior is different — there *is* a genetic expression of that in your DNA.

  21. hey Anna, yeah I totally agree with you that race is only skin deep, genetically I think there is 7 groups (human) and then they sub dived to Mediterranean to North European etc…Sorry I don’t remember all the facts as it has been along time since I have done genetics studies. Basically I agree with you.

    But who we are is deeper than blood I believe that if we could see where we come from, we can see who we are and where we should go and become.

  22. I had to laugh when I read this post today… Thoughts I posted on my FB page this morning are in a similar vein…My post this early AM: ” So many people walk around as if they are dead. I don’t get it. Just sit and wait for things to happen and then when they don’t, they complain. How can people live their life that way??WAKE UP”

    What moves me? GROWTH and being able to say I lived my life on my terms and embracing (most of the time) the good, the bad, and the ugly.

  23. Great thread, but as tonight is the first time I’ve been out drinking since I signed up to the boards I’ll keep shtumm for now… Just have to say I *so* relate to that Italian side of Elsa.

    I first went to Italy aged 19 then again three years later on a long summer vac – Venice (on the way to Israel), Naples, Pompeii,and Genoa on the way back, via shooting stars, Rome and the whole damn thing – taken round by artists who lived there; Florence, Siena… I’ve never felt so at home. Almost twenty years later I got to live there – again, I’ve never felt so at home. I;d never have left voluntarily – this was for life. In between, I had a lover, one of the great loves of my life, who was Italian (lived in London, had been in Matthausen during the war, had contracted already to return to Italy – Milan – when we met – I loved to visit him there).

    So Italy is in my boood too, I’m certain of that – why did I find it so easy to learn the language, why do I find the food so much to my taste, to cook and to eat? – why is my *style* so Italian, and my looks and even my bodily shape? Why do the architecture, landscape, art and very texture and colours of Italy resonate so strongly in me? I don’t know, but I do know there were POW camps in the area my birth mother lived, towards the end of the war… I’ll never know who my father was, but I’d put a lot of money on him having been Italian…

    Well… The truth of it all is hidden – but I do know that Elsa’s voice “spoke” to me when I first chanced on the blog. And though we don’t always agree, hers is a voice which resonates for me – I feel we speak the same language, even if with a very different accent

  24. “The idea that some are excused from performance and others subsidize them is repugnant to me.”
    and “All the focus and resources flow to the weak rather than let the naturally rising tide lift all boats. It doesn’t work”
    Just on a humanitarian level are we not judged by how we treat the weak amongst us? And I’m pretty sure the weak amongst us do not under any estimation receive anything like “all the resources”.

  25. Sylvia, I didn’t say anything about mistreating weak people.

    As an example of resources flowing to the rear rather than the leader, my kid’s school no longer has parent teacher conferences unless the kid is a discipline problem or behind academically. This means a kid who is excelling is ignored and the most effective way to get attention is to under-perform. What kid doesn’t want attention?

    I just like the idea of rewarding excellence which inspires the ones behind. It is a lifting of all boats rather than a quashing of the people leading the pack.

    I realize many or even most may not agree but this is what seems right to me and most likely to bring best result overall. I also think this has been proven throughout history. People perform for reward and this is why rewarding people for misbehaving or not performing is so destructive.

  26. there’s mile wide anti-authoritarian streaks on both sides of my family. strong celtic overtones of various flavors… i think maybe there’s a connection..

    and then there’s the battle fugue many of us are capable of (even without woad)
    not much place for that sort of mental state any more. i usually get it out while i’m dancing.

  27. Tracing roots…what a journey…

    I’ve been working at it for a long time, a very long time. Even though many records are available online, not all of them are and even with names, it’s tough to find out who came “before” without at least some semblance of family legend and what-not.

    I’ve pestered our family’s old folks for stories til now everybody knows to tell me when they hear another one.

    Just a thought: cemeteries are very good sources of information. Down here in Alabama, so many Civil War veterans’ graves were desecrated that for a long while, they were not marked. But gravestones can be great for getting leads.

    There is one year for which the Federal Census records are virtually non-existent nationwide: 1890. But with just a little information and which cemetery to check, you might be able to locate another little piece. And take a pic of it so you can put it in the records along with the name of the cemetery, the street address, any religious building associated with it, and landmarks.

    Just keep in mind that not all gravestones are accurate! My astronomically huge family is arguing now about who should pay to change a name on a gravestone for an ancestor who died in 1899. The family legend name does not match any of the Census records nor courthouse records. We all agree that it needs changing but…I may have to win the Publisher’s Clearinghouse Giveaway and get it done myself. 😛

    Sag Sun in 8th, love walking through cemeteries. 🙂

  28. Northern European. Moon in Pisces. In love with the ancient classic. The take your fate in your own hands and become an artisan.

    There are deeply psychological traits, that as you have suggested, are part of the “package”. And I think these tribal tendencies do emerge at funny times. My parents both went into the professional theatre, met on the stage. Married. One, from New England and one from Wisconsin. After doing our “roots”, another family tendency, they found both Frenches and Healys were in the Boston area in the 1600’s.

    I also think the more dissolute our blood lines become through urbanization, immigration and just plain old interbreeding, the less this will be meaningful and the more it will become mythological. Myths are fun too, and still give grist for our familial stories.

    If I might point out how myth gets in here. The Italians are full of themselves and “in your face”, but that’s because they have been pushing pizzas and pinching women’s behinds for two thousand years. The original ancient Romans died out and got absorbed. The first great Emporer Augustus tried to instill in the Roman families an ethos to have at least two kids. The Roman women were hard to persuade, even with tax incentives. They disappeared into the populace, retiring to all of their country estates, and having a birth rate that was astonishingly uninspiring. Who are the modern Italians. For centuries slave populations came from the East. Look at Sophia Loren and see the face of a Babylonian goddess.

    It is the myths we weave. And they are super important. The cowboy ethos is grand. The actual era was a short post civil war to 1890’s period. To watch the movies, you would think we were cowboys for hundreds and hundreds of years – why? It appeals to the ethos in us all. Be tough. Civilize a wild place, but let the wildness be a part of you too.

    I personally prefer the tribal view like you do. It’s just that 200 years from now when you won’t be able to trace a real blood line with a crooked pen, people will still drum up a family ethos, because that’s what we do. Tribal comes ultimately from Family. Sorry I took so long. It’s a great topic.

  29. My family is mixed race all the way – therefore I am an mongrel.

    My mothers side – and on her mothers side – there was a mix of gypsy and scotish.

    My mother would tell me that her uncles would have fist fights in the street sun/mars in the fourth. There main proffession seemed to be scrap metal – how unusual.

    My mothers fathers side was intellectual/academic.

    Unfortunately for me I got the rough looks of the gypsy and the intellect not to match that.

    My father was irish stock. His father was an orange man – so more sun/mars.

  30. Gemini Moon conjunct the cusp of the 8th, or at the end of the 7th in Equal.

    I grew up in England and on the West coast. I would be fine with men finding a rapist, but I’m not so keen on the violence – even though I also understand that. I’m too soft, but when I think of them going on to hurt again.. I remember you posting about a woman named Angela – who was in the news a lot, when I was born (and mum said she should have expected certain things about me, because of my name) – this woman who said that rape would only stop when men stop standing back and allowing it to happen. I agree with that.

    My mother grew up with the tough London cousins, who were boxers, and involved with a rough crowd. they respected women, and would look out for her and her sisters, when they got new boyfriends. I do like the idea of someone having my back in that way. my mother actualy called up her uncle, and arranged to have someone get their kneecaps broken (the sociopath), but then she felt bad and called it off.

    I grew up a hard worker, and my homeschool teacher was impressed with my work ethic, and my sister’s, and our actually finishing all of it. I’m more scattered now, and have almost no focus. I was thinking about this last night – my art, and how I sold something when I was nineteen. I was born to do that, but I stopped for some reason – went off in a totally different direction for a while, and never really got back to it, even though at my Saturn return, I was supposed to (I know this). I was also thinking about different cultures, after starting to read a Stephanie Plum book (character is Italian and Hungarian), and thinking about the people out there immersing themselves in buddhism, to the point where they’re wanting to lose their identities, have no special ties to anyone, live groundlessly. I don’t get it!

  31. Oh, I think:

    English side = French (grandmother’s side), scandinavian (grandfather’s side), and I’m forgetting something.

    American side = Native American (here in Ohio), English, Irish, and French-canadian. I’m not sure what else, if anything. People seem to see the native american first, forgetting that the french (on our side) were dark-haired, as well.

  32. Aries 5th house Moon conjunct Mars.

    My father’s line came from Dover and Faversham, England in 1880’s. They were brickmakers. Settled into pioneering the US Midwest. Married into an old Connecticut line (founders of Stamford, Hartford and early settlers of NY) who became lawyers (glad my parents moved out West, lol). Also throw in an Irish merchant in 1790 NYC.

    On mom’s side, I haven’t had much luck in my research, but traced one line back to Wisconsin (a German blacksmith) and another were owners of a grist mill in Connecticut. The rest are elusive Irish and Scotts who appeared in the Midwest direct from Ireland (1860’s) or via North Carolina. I hope to find their roots some day too.

    I love the mish-mash of cultures which are my past. I am constantly trying to learn their effect upon my life and how I live it.

  33. I do seriously believe in blood ties, and being adopted I know at first hand the feeling of growing up among people to whom I felt no deep ties at all. I felt exactly like the alien I in fact was, in that family, for all I loved individual members.

    I’m sure I came from somewhere else. I feel at home only in the Mediterranean, and when I’ve been down there a few weeks or months, I look at home too.

  34. a depth psychology perspective (of which there are many) would say that in early early childhood we absorb the archetypal expressions of those around us. normally our culture, particularly that of the immediate family, _especially the mother (moon.) these archetypal expressions are powerful underlying currents of our perspectives on reality and human nature and persist down generations.
    in political science or sociology one could call these things “norms,” and they can shift. sometimes rapidly. they can also persist over millennia. i think some are more deeply embedded and fixed than others… for example, the shape and characterization of “trickster” changes dramatically from culture to culture. which makes sense given the fluidity of the concept itself. “mother” on the other hand tends to be far more stable.

  35. Fascinating to read everyone’s backgrounds. I’m a Heinz 57 of English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh, German, and a wee bit of Cherokee. My family has been in US for centuries and I had family fight on both sides of the Civil War. During the Dust Bowl my grandparents came to CA from Oklahoma. My mother was born along the way in Arizona. Grandparents picked cotton and peaches. True “Grapes of Wrath” people.

    I attribute my hard work ethic and conscientiousness to my upbringing. I am also the first person in my family to have a college degree.

    Elsa – I also miss Ali and guys who were uber confident.

  36. We emigrated from Ireland to Canada when I was 4. My dad was an abusive man – sexually, verbally, mentally, emotionally.
    When I was about 14 yrs, he told me one day that every family was like this, this stuff happened in everybody’s family. I believed him until I noticed it wasn’t happening at my friend’s houses.
    It wasn’t until later in life that I realized that HE truly believed this – this is how it is/was in Ireland, this is what he came from, this was all he knew. (My mother was raped by her brother AND a priest).
    A few years ago I spent a few months with distant relatives in England. I was so horrified with the mass anger in the environment I couldn’t wait to get back home. There was a blow up in the house I was in, the young guy was flipping on his girl – I could hear things crashing and her being thrown around. The mother intervened complaining that he was going to wake the young children!! Not a peep about what he was doing to his woman!
    We are truly a product of our environment until we become conscious and change our beliefs.

  37. I’m a mix of Irish, German, and Native American (Shawnee). I’m sure there’s more mutting in there somewhere, too. 😉

    But I identify as American. I know there’s things in my family that can be traced to my ancestral roots — like a love of drink and belligerence — but, on the whole, I just feel American. I’m an extremely typical mix for my area, just one particle of homogenization, and that’s shaped me more than anything else, I think.

    I have a stellium in my 4th which trines my Aqua moon. *smiles*

  38. Elsa, you are living in the wrong part of the country. The spirit and values that you embrace are alive and well on the east coast :-). Its great for me who also shares those perspectives. Not so great for my 13 year old daughter with ADD who tries and tries and tries to very limited avail, poor kid.

    • Jeannie, you may be right. I don’t think I am in the right place, that’s for sure but I will most likely be here for the next 5 years. I work with a lot of New Yorkers and am always glad to get someone on phone who clearly wants to get ahead on whatever front. I just don’t get “rasta time” in any way, shape or form. Life is short and so many possibilities.

  39. My blood doesn’t match my moon (Sadge on the 1st/2nd cusp). I got raised to behave and settle, period. I got raised SQUASHED.

    “I am constantly confused as to why people don’t seize opportunities that seem to be laid out in front of them to my eye. Why don’t they capitalize, I wonder?”

    Because I got raised to do ANYTHING BUT THAT. I have massive guilt voices in my head about doing anything else. I wouldn’t even know where to start doing anything, apparently. I don’t know about “blood,” but when that is your entire world, it’s really just hard to see anything else, it could be Narnia for all it’s realistic to me.

  40. I’m wondering now, which part of Italy exactly. Because actually the history of Italy as a nation is very recent, and the nation itself assimilated a bunch of different populations that encompassed a huge diversity of traditions, customs, ethics. I’m from Sardinia, which is technically Italy but their people have next to nothing in common with a person from the industrial triangle. Industrialization was a part of Northern Italy’s history for a longer time than it was in the South so capitalism in itself isn’t something we would see as characteristically rooted in the peninsula as a whole.

  41. My Moon in in Taurus, in the 5th House. I have shied away from fame my whole life, because as a child, being noticed or having the spotlight on me meant trouble. Home trouble.

    Even two generations later, I still prefer one on one contact. Fb posts to the public are as far as I go.

  42. Hmm rasta time. With so much Mars energy I feel I should be a lot further along in life, and today am having a bit of a meltdown so reading this thread closely. Is it Neptune slowing everything and fogging, along with misdirecting energy into salary and Saturn security? I get tired of trying the different paths that might lead to a freer income and release from shitty bosses. I get worn down trying to solve this and feel the need to have a rest, or more like my mind does. But then I get up again and have another go. The challenge is finding consistency to do a little every day, daily practice. It’s coming together slowly but it’s slow. Too slow for an Aries, like swimming in mud. Like life has become a massive stack of paperwork I will never sort. I kind of feel like Rapunzel with a looming Saturn Rumpelstiltskin on my shoulder all the time. When you’ve had success then lost it, it can be hard to try climb the mountain again, even if you know there is help aways up the track. It’s about being brave.
    Maybe people who are lacking drive are just, frightened of success or can’t imagine it. Goodness knows the southern Irish in particular and Celts in general have their own mañana (and the drink) that gives the time and escape to dream and tell stories. And get lost. I have a lot of that from my fathers Catholic side, but along with a strong work and service ethic, embedded in my Skanda Methodist heritage on my mothers.
    The Neptune dreamer can just dissipate and drown all that fire and confidence very easily with self doubt, without helpers. Sometimes it feels as if only one of the ancestor sides is winning. Another day I might feel really different about it!

  43. I feel like I got the pushover gene :/.

    My family has a lot of water signs and my mother is like one huge PENTACLE so earth as well. I think its in our blood to be pushed over.

    Cancer moon, 12th house.

  44. This is such a sensitive topic for me. Pisces Moon conjunct Chiron, trine Neptune and opposed Uranus/Mercury/Pluto. Pluto by zero degree, exact.

    My father literally hated my mother. Beat her to a pulp and left to marry another woman. We were left hanging, my mom addicted to narcotics. I grew up alone mostly. When my mom was sober, she dragged me along to visit her elderly mother, aunt, and my half sister who was either jailed or institutionalized. I would hang out by myself during all these visits, sort of forgotten. Sometimes my mom was institutionalized, and I literally spent time alone without supervision. So, I don’t feel any sort of connection to my family.

    My poor son, his father wanted nothing much to do with us so it was just the two of us. We were very close until he was half way thru high school, then he spent more time with his friends. He has Sag Moon in the 11th house, opposed Venus so I can see why. I am happy for him, and have learned to love my independence. I’m weird, my pets are my tribe now.

    When I was very young, my older half sister had an Italian boyfriend. He was so nice, and I remember a time or two being invited to his house for a meal. Most of the family only spoke Italian, brand new immigrants to the states. I marveled at his huge, happy family all living under one roof and all seemingly very close. It was wonderful to experience.

  45. I see, Elsa, you mentioned here that you missed Muhammed Ali, and, sadly, today we shall all really miss him. A remarkable man and a hero to so many in so many ways. RIP.

  46. Pure Italian, my family came over in 1930. New York state. If anyone raped one of our women, they would be dead. I married a redneck. My daughters were making bullets at age 2 and had their own .22 rifles at age five. My sun is in Libra, my ascendant is in Libra, my Venus is in Libra, and my Mercury is in Libra, my moon is in Scorpio. I don’t like anyone. Someone broke into our house when my daughters were two and three and I was alone and my husband was at work. The intruder is dead. I didn’t even hesitate. There was no way that I was going to take the chance that my daughters were going to watch me be raped or worse they were going to be raped. Self defense.

  47. My moon is Gemini 12th house and I am also Italian. I came from a whole family of “driven” people but all they do is fight. Do i think this healthy? In some regards, yes, because everything is out in the open and discussed…but on the other hand there isn’t always a need for ambition, and getting ahead, and the fighting becomes unnecessary. I’m not entirely against “being excused from performance while others subsidize” because, as Rainer Maria Rilke pointed out, “everything is gestation and birthing.” Even in Buddhist literature there is mention of forcing something into being before it is ready. All it does is damage the growth process. So, yes, sloth is bad news when it is long term but a temporary reprieve I believe is completely healthy and I don’t mind “subsidizing” while the going is good and I have lots of energy and resources for when others are struggling. Though it’s a sweeping statement to say everyone has their place and should contribute, many “roles” are already taken (due to lots of people wanting to be in that role) and not everybody gets to do what it is they love (in fact i would say most people don’t get to do what they love) and are spending their lives working in jobs they hate.

    • My father’s family fight about whether they have Italian blood or not. 😀 It was not to be discussed. Something about a fight on a boat and one of the two men going overboard and lost at sea was the story. My summation is that it depends on whose kid the subject of the argument was carrying. I also looked back at some geneology from the old country and one of the great(s) kinduv dropped off the chart. Like, wait a minute we are all here, were did the record of that go? I may look back at it closer sometime in the future when I am bored with everything else.

  48. ‘I am drawn this way’. 😀 Thanks for the laughter today. I can’t say mine out loud. It would not be wise. Probably why I am accused of being vague.

  49. When someone presents a philosophy or ideology or any assumption that relies on a desire for all war, violence, aggression to be ERASED, I recognize that as a major flaw in their argument. It’s not natural, it’s not organic, it’s not reality.

  50. I’m Dutch/Belgian, with Moon in Libra conj. Nep & Mercury in the 1st house. As a child I somehow knew there was Jewish blood in me. Only decades later an uncle confirmed this. Because of the Nazi occupation it had been kept a secret.

  51. I have a 7th house Cancer moon trine Saturn and square Pluto. (Saturn-Pluto) It also squares my Venus and opposes my Ascendant. My moon seems to create drama and jealousy in my family. I feel like an outcast at times and stepped on as a person. My emotions always feel tense or numb. :/

    I come from German, Hungarian, Irish, Czech, and Scottish blood. I got in interested in this post because my paternal grandmother died last week.

  52. I have shared this with several people since I read it because it made me think. Simple truths presents profoundly, just why I’ve been visiting this blog for over ten years now, contributing sometimes, absorbing always. I know you get a lot of shit but I hope I can communicate that I have found a lot of food for thought and spiritual insight from reading this blog and that you have influenced and touched at least one person. That being said, here is “Shit Italian Moms Say”.

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