Can A Scorpio Be Weak?

There was a discussion in the forum, “What makes a “Plutonian”.   I wrote:

“I would not consider a Scorpio rising, “plutonian”. The rising sign is veneer. Put ruler Pluto in Scorpio conjunct the ascendant and I’ll change my mind…”

I don’t know that anyone can define this for anyone other than themselves. But if I were going to try, I would be looking at a person’s essence.

One person may be transcendent for example; a Neptune / Pisces type. Another may be a strong Saturn figure. A Plutonian would have deep impact on anyone they were closely associated with.

Another thing to note is many people strongly represent more than one energy and I am an example of this. That I have a strong Plutonian vibe is undeniable but I can just as easily be defined as “Mercurial” or “Saturnian” or even “Jupitarian” or “Neptunian”.

If you an instrument, then you are just an instrument until someone tunes the instrument and learns to play it.

There’s such a  thing as a limp double Scorpio! I have met them in my time for sure.  Yesterday I spoke with a gal who had Venus conjunct Pluto in Virgo; she was keen as they come. I would characterize her as “Plutonian”. The double Scorpio was nothing / null and void.

It’s like having a good singing voice. If you opt not to sing, then you’re not a singer.

What energy has been honed in you?

Related – What is a Plutonian?



Can A Scorpio Be Weak? — 74 Comments

  1. I love what you say here: “My point is an instrument is just an instrument until someone tunes it and learns to play it…It’s like having a good singing voice. If you opt not to sing, then you’re not a singer.”
    To apply that idea to people with a strong Pluto/Scorpio/8th house component in their charts, perhaps such a person is not truly Plutonian until they experience Plutonian events..betrayals, deaths, and other tough experiences, generally under tough Pluto transits.
    My precious younger sister with Sun/Pluto/Saturn in Leo had a really hard time from early years and yet no one could rain on her parade, still the sort whose Sun rose every day…until maybe betrayal #88 or 89. Then she became mordantly bitter, toxic. I understand her bitterness and feel so bad for, but it is still hard to listen to.
    I say about them that they have the strength of diamonds and bear up under things that would crush a lesser soul. What I do love most about them is that they have a really warped sense of humor.

  2. Venus-Pluto conjunct in Scorpio. Besides the fact that sometimes we don’t use all our energies all the time, do you think that I would be considered Plutonium?

  3. This may be a stupid question but how do you know if you can, or are capable of, manipulating energy. I usually consider myself as being pretty self-aware but have no idea if I do that (manipulate eneergy) and for some reason I really want to know!

  4. moonpluto I suspect many are capable – most even, it’s just not an area of interest? It’s like all the people who walk on this blog. Most people could walk 4 miles if they wanted to, they don’t want to. Pluto requires you become the shadow.

    I have no idea another person’s process but in my case, I have pulled this stuff up from the depths to integrate it into my consciousness to a significant degree and a degree that increases all the time as I consider this my life’s work in large part.

    I imagine with a Moon Pluto conjunction you mess with energy all the time whether you know it or not. You put your energy under mine all the time, or at least you used to. Was this not conscious?

    If you put your energy underneath someone in support, you are manipulating them by infusing them with your energy. It is not different they laying your hands on someone and giving them a massage. Energy is exchanged!

  5. Manipulating other people’s energy is a tricky devil, because if you do it enough, you realize that it all comes from the same place, and you yourself start to be manipulated by a force you can’t see.

    I used to have recurring lucid dreams about manipulation. I would realize I was dreaming and, being the horny teenage male I was, immediately start manipulating pretty girls to have sex with me. What happened was, I would manipulate the girl, and then if I took my mind off her for a second, her eyes would go blank and she would become a zombie with arms spread out, trying to attack me, and I couldn’t touch her mind again. Then I’d manipulate someone to stop her, but as soon as I took my mind off…you see where it’s going. What’s worse, if any of these zombies touched anyone else, that person’s eyes would glaze over, and pretty soon everyone in the city would be shambling toward me, and I’d have to fly up, up and away from it all.

    So I know how to manipulate energy, yes. I’m a Scorpio with Sun in the first house tightly conjunct Pluto (and Venus). The question is, do I want to? It only “works” if I get the sense that the cosmos (the energy source for us all) is backing me. Sometimes it’s okay to support and enclose someone else, sometimes it’s not. Sometimes it’s okay to excite someone else, sometimes not. Sometimes it’s okay to bring someone down, sometimes not. It’s an intuitive measurement, and it’s how I determine the ethics of energy manipulation. If it’s not ethical, my manipulation always backfires, thankfully only humorously in my life thus far.

  6. “A Plutonian would have deep impact on anyone they were closely associated with.”

    A-ha. This is why I asked. I only have scorpio asc but I’ve been thinking about this lately.

    I’ve had three bosses that felt incredibly close to me in the short time that I worked with them, to the point of balling when I quit/they quit/moved. One in partiular, she trained me for about a month before she moved…she immediately took to me and took me under her wing. On her last day when we said our goodbyes…she easily said goodbye to people she worked with for 7 years, but cried her eyes out when she said goodbye to me. She proceeded to tell me what a special kinda person I am and such…I was about 19, she in her 30’s. This is very similar to the relationships I had with 2 other bosses.
    One time while visiting my in-laws a few years ago, there was a friend of my mother-in-law visiting from the Philipines, she instantly took to me and the night before I left she called me into a room to give me a gift. She began to tell me what a special kinda person I am, and started crying, telling me to tell my parents that they raised me right. I only interacted with this woman for about 4 days and was taken aback by her reaction to me. I felt flattered but instantly wondered…why does this always happen to me?
    Close friends always profess what an impact I’ve made on their lives, while I’m dumbfounded because I don’t understand what I’m doing to make them feel that way.
    I never hear anyone else around me with a similar story…again, I’m flattered..humbled…confused about it all.
    I don’t manipulate any energy to my acknowledgement, I just am me.
    I hope I don’t sound pompous in any way, I’m just trying to understand why I get these reactions (astrologically).

  7. I think it was Eric Francis who wrote this: he asked his therapist what to do about death, and his therapist replied, “dance with it.”

    I think that’s a wonderful description of Plutonian energy, put to good use.

  8. I am Plutonian (Sun conjunct Pluto, Moon trine Pluto, MC conjunct Pluto, Ascendant sextile Pluto, Scorpio ascendant) and not to be rude but if you have to ask, you are not. It’s that simple.

  9. Thanks for your feedback, Elsa.

    And I appreciate the massage example — because I understand it — is a tangible detail to me– and think I do that for people, literally, in service. I guess I’m still working on understanding the whole concept, it really facinates me.

    Whatever it is that I DO, it is unconscious. Choosing someone to support, that is totally conscious.
    I’m picky 🙂

    And yes, I have tried to, wanted to be a support — maybe I just use different words

    I remember one weekend, months ago, where I was following the blog intensely one morning, and watching all the misunderstandings arise. I felt like I had to step in– I could feel your frustration with the process (or so it seemed to me)

    I love the image you use, you’ve used it before, of shoring up, of getting underneath someone. It’s very powerful.

    What you are talking about here, Elsa, about shoring up — is it dfferent than “friendship” ? At least that’s how I define friendship–

    Or, it’s like if someone is my friend, true true friend, they get this support.

    It feels so powerful. I think I was like this as a kid. Trying to or wanting to give shelter.

    Maybe… this has something to do with pallas athena in the 7th house. She is a strategest, warrior, protector

  10. The range of responses here is really interesting. Marlon seems totally scorpio to me and aware of it, and Shell is wondering why she’s having this strong effect on others.

    Shell, I’m sure you do stuff for people that you aren’t aware of– I don’t know the astrology unless it’s just your shining Leo light!!

    Whatever version of Plutonion I have, it is definitely colored by my Cancerian-ness. Now that I’m more familiar with Scorpio energy up close, I know I’m not one of them by a long shot. What I do or what I am is really different. I also feel I was recently the “victim” of some scorpio energy manipulation and it feels kind of heartbreaking.

    They were manipulating my energy. But for me, it FELT like CONNECTION. Why do they do that? Fun and games? Feels good to them?

    It made me feel played with and I have to say that I am different– I try to support people. This is different than manipulating energy for sport.

  11. ‘I have pulled this stuff up from the depths to integrate it into my consciousness to a significant degree’

    So it’s about transformation or transcendance? The ability to take the crap that life has thrown at you (or someone else)and turn it into conscious understanding which becomes a platform for the future, instead of a weight keeping you anchored in the past?

  12. “So it’s about transformation or transcendence?”

    opal, it seems hard to write about this stuff because everyone has their own view – is talking about their perception of the word which is why I wrote what I did. I don’t know what anyone is going to be able to define this and be the authority.

    In my mind “plutonian” has nothing to do with transcendence, though. With Pluto you’re in the 8th house and you are IN IT. You are in the shadow, you are part of it and transcendence is a 12th house affair which is way the hell…

    over there ——–>

  13. shell

    I dont know if I am wrong … but your energy reminds me more of Neptunian or Jupitarian. They felt very close to you in a short time

    I guess the Plutonian impact would be more transformational for other people

  14. I think it’s hard to talk about Plutonian energy because it is felt. It is primal and precedes language. Plutonian people tend to know who they are at their core because they’ve been burned down to it. You can’t teach that. Can’t define it for someone who hasn’t experienced it.

  15. Pluto and SN in Scorpio 8th house —

    Thank you for this post! Its veryyy helpful. It gave me food for thought

    When there is this (Plutonian)energy exchange between two people …. does it mean that the people invloved are always going to have some kind of transformation?

    example- After the massage we have a feeling of relieve. Some experience freedom from pains and they often experience increased energy and heightened awareness. <— transformation for that person

  16. posted this over on the boards, but wanted to put it here as well…

    While out researching “plutonian” on the web, I ran across this interesting tidbit about this guys version of a Plutonian generation.

    and on ElsaElsa before:

    Elsa, could you describe a limp double Scorpio in a bit more detail for us?

  17. (mostly invisible in that working with energy feels very natural to me. *shrug* doesn’t seem like anything special usually.)

  18. i’m not surprised. but i always get surprised when i see it. (innocent face) “who, me?”
    don’t understand why people are intimidated (which… happens) when i have no intention of doing it…

  19. I think of a limp double scorpio as a snake biting its own tail, or a scorpion stinging itself to death. This is the inner world of a limp double scorpio — as such, on the outside they can seem unsure of themselves, nonexistent, libido-less, addicted to forms of escape, etc., while internally they’re a wreck of self-pity and resentment. I know because it’s a danger for me, as I think it is for all scorpios or plutonians who have ever wanted to “fit in” according to superficial parameters, for love, for work, for family, or whatever. Take it from me, it might be a necessary mask to wear, and it might be so exhausting you want to give in, but don’t believe the superficiality is true for a second.

  20. OMG Marlon, I completely get that. And wyrdling, you too. My pluto demands complete honesty, no bullshit, and never, ever allows me to play victim and get away with it. It can be haaard. The fact that some are intimidated or frightened or weirded out by this energy is what trips me up.. that’s when I feel like I have to make myself small to fit in. I am coming to appreciate Pluto’s influence on my character, but it does come with a price.

  21. hm.
    i feel everyone else pretty strongly. it’s difficult to see what color i breathe out when i’m walking in it.
    worth thinking about.

  22. that thing about making oneself small… i spent a long time doing that. got upset at how intimidated people are sometimes and tried to avoid it.
    but it’s really out of my control.
    and i can’t avoid it.
    so i’m uncurling from my shell. i just hope i don’t overshoot the other direction.

  23. Regarding asking what something means or what something is — like asking “am I plutonion” or whatever…. I think that’s a sign of a certain type of thought process. Some types of people like to define their terms minutely. As well, some people are only semi-conscious of how they seem in the world. And some people just play dumb and want more information and that’s one way to get it. Personally, I like to hear certain people’s opinions on certain topics. Virgo moon discerns.

    • As a Gemini Moon, and having Virgo Moons as close family members, I really appeciate that succinct expansion of what Elsa wrote (we each perceive these things in our own ways). Thank you, MoonPluto.
      Having Neptune opposite Mercury, reminders like this are useful to me. Ditto, minutely defined terms!

  24. maybe that’s part of projection. by not realizing how specific it is to me, by assuming it’s typical, i place it on other peoplre rather than seeing it in myself.

    well. yes. that’s exactly what i did. kept looking for strong pluto so i’d have it around but not recognizing i carried it too..

  25. I’m not sure if this is a signature of Pluto or not, but I ask “who I am without that” as much as I ask ‘who am I to have that.” This applies to thoughts, feelings, habits, people, things etc. It seems like a constant process of elimination and integration. It’s hard to put into words, but it does make me feel freaky and intense.

    • That is it exactly !!! It has always been there so no big deal. Half the time absorbing all that energy is more a burden than blessing.

  26. I agree with the notion that a plutonian is someone who can skillfully manipulate energy….and people! My ex was a double Scorpio, but he was as soft as soft could be. He had Sun and Moon in Scorpio, but was a Libra rising. He has also Sun and Moon conjunct Neptune. He would help a worm across the street. I wouldn’t think of him as Plutonian in any way, but he did exhibit Scorpio traits. He was an engineer for one. Great with money.

  27. Lupa said: “Plutonian people tend to know who they are at their core because they’ve been burned down to it. You can’t teach that. Can’t define it for someone who hasn’t experienced it.”

    BINGO, at least in my experience. I’ve been burned down to barely more than ashes several times, until I learned what power Pluto holds in my chart. I allowed myself to be burned because I did not understand or comprehend my own power to change it.

    And Barb…my ex was the same way. Scorpio rising, Sun, Venus, Mercury conj. He is a good man, will help anyone, BUT he is also passive aggressive to the max and has the no ambition to better his lot. That said, when he truly got angry, it was scary as hell. My kids have told me things since I left that I had no idea had happened. If I had known, my Pluto would have kicked him in the balls, cleaned out the bank account, and had them out of there years ago.

  28. I’m a Scorpio rising with the Pluto and Saturn conjuncting my ascendant in Scorpio. What I’ve noticed is that people tend to be scared of me when they meet me. This is especially true with people around my age. That’s why I have may elder friends as they don’t feel so intimidated by me.
    I personally view my self as a easy going fun person as I have venus and moon in Gemini with a Cancer Sun. But obviously others don’t see me like that.
    I’m 24 years old now and I finally figured why people were funny around me only few years ago.
    I’m still getting used to this plutonian energy but I do get what I want out of people, somehow. I think I literally know all my friends secret.

  29. haha i’m pluto libra, so i have libra… but it’s all pluto!

    and today i would say… i feel mostly mercury.
    but that mercury’s in tight aspect to uranus/scorpio. and then there’s that whole eighth house mess.
    i guess after spending so long around a six planet+ Asc scorpio stellium my idea of what it means to be plutonian is a little warped.
    but, well, i feel a need to dig in the dirt. if you don’t work the compost it can turn into poison pretty fast.
    and i’m not so afraid of being burned. now. as i was. there’s a certain liberation in realizing that you can survive having your world disintegrate… and that, on some level, it _has_ to, for life to continue and new things to grow as old things wear out.

  30. Plutonian people tend to know who they are at their core because they’ve been burned down to it.

    yesss. I find i actually thrive in situations where I am challenged and i am burned down because deep down I know i will rise above the ashes and become a pheonix! and be 1000 times better than before.

    venus, and mercury conjunct pluto in scorpio
    all in the 12th house, so what elsa talked about with transcendence definitely rings true for me

  31. I have a number of planets in Scorpio in 11th 12th incl the Sun and Pluto conjuct Uranus in Virgo on the MC. The problem with communicating and describing the Plutonian energy I find is that it will almost create a veil of exclusivity. So how do you describe a great power that gives you such an advantage – yet at the same time without any consideration whatsoever will leave you buried in a situation that will burn a hole in your heart? Yet it will demand you let go of the battle you are in, proceed to leave you in a void without emotion only to lift you out to be born a new like nothing ever happened. A marked difference in the internal side is that you feel stronger and almost deliciously satisfied. Food seems to taste better, music lifts you so much higher and you know that when you love again it will be so much deeper.

  32. Not very “plutonian”, I’d say more Mercurial or Neptunian. But lotion’s comment rings a bell. I generally respond well to a challenge, thrive, and tend to come out of it well. Resilient

    People act threatened around me too, they respond with a zing where they don’t to others. Not sure why this is, as I’m usually pretty soft and let things ride!

  33. Ah, but before I got distracted by those thoughts, I was originally attracted to this post because I know a “limp” double Scorpio, and she confounds me because she seems so un-Scorpionic to me. I have surrounded myself with Scorpios my whole life and love them to pieces, but I never would have guessed she was Scorpio Sun/Scorpio rising/Leo Moon… in fact, I always thought she was a Virgo!

    Marlon’s description is very interesting to me, and I wonder if this is some of what she is experiencing.

  34. According to the guidelines on the site to which jenfullmoon linked (, I am very Plutonic/Plutonian – a score over 30 no matter what house system you use.

    I have Pluto in Libra in my 8th house making the following aspects: conjunct Mercury, sextile Saturn and Neptune, and trine my AC. I’ve also got three planets (Venus, Mars, and Uranus) and the North Node in Scorpio.

    But… I don’t think I come across as very Plutonian. When I think of Pluto, I think of INTENSITY. Power. Passion. Depth. Qualities to which I am immensely attracted (I married a Scorpio) but which I do not feel I manifest myself.

    Maybe it’s my Libra Sun or Aquarius ascendant lightening things up, or my Virgo Moon providing some analytical detachment. Or maybe it’s as Elsa said, and I’m not actively tapping into and using that dormant power. Hmmn…


  35. Pluto’s higher octave energy has to be controlled
    and for a lack of a better word manipulated because it is raw. Every person that vibrates with that energy and only you know if it does needs to consciously change it. At some point as a sun Scorpio I had to make a decision that had good consequences and that was I would never get even. Consider Scorpio Bill Gates who has amassed a fortune that he is now giving away to philanthropic causes. That’s Plutos power.

  36. I scored a 30 on Donna Cunningham’s Pluto quiz on the first question. *snort* Pluto literally hits everything in my chart in some way, although three of the contacts are by stellium and not direct.

    I feeeeeel Plutonian, but I mostly keep quiet on these threads. I look at the criteria and read the descriptions and go “Yep!,” but most of it happens below my radar. It’s instinctual, like breathing, and I just don’t notice it until it’s pointed out.
    The times I consciously use my power, though, are magnificent (says Leo *lol*). I can feel it manifest, whatever purpose I’m using it for, I can feel the energy shift and rearrange and work towards my goal.
    Shore up a friend? Cloud, right there, supporting softly without letting them fall. Spider senses tingling? Laser on alert, picking up everything in range and filing it away. Soul wound needs healing? Here comes the scalpel, slice slice slice, and I’ll catch the blood.
    When it’s on, when I’m on, are some of the most marvelous times, even when it’s dark and bloody and dangerous. I feel truly alive, to the tips of my hair, like I should glow with it. The rest of the time is like sleepwalking or living encased in gauze. *le sigh*
    But even I know a crisis everyday is neither feasible nor desirable. 😉

  37. Comments have been eaten steadily for the past three days. 🙁 Very sad, because I just slaved over trying to get how I feel my Pluto down into words and I don’t think I can recapture it now.


    I think the test is pointless. It’s not about wether the aspects are hard or soft or so-called minor, it’s about how the energy manifests. Not that I wish to sound mean, but it reads more like an opportunity to promote a book than really understand what it really means to be Plutonian. This isn’t to say having more negative aspects don’t ever create problems, but the article is too simplistic for me to take that seriously.

    In addition, the 8th house is about death, inheritances, and other people’s money. I’ll probably remain skeptical about how plutonian and sex driven it really makes people for now for awhile as I engage in more study about this discipline.

  39. all so interesting these contributions. I have Pluto in Virgo trined to my Sun in Capricorn in the 6th. The way I am using this is through my daily chi qong energy practice…which works with dark matter – so I go deep and channel the potential into my body to increase my chi and through the practice manipulate this into elevated daily experience. No matter my life experience to date, this empowers me.

  40. Krisinluck

    I think my double Scorp ex was rather passive agressive as well. Its that Sun Moon in Scorp conjunct Neptune. It drove me crazy that he never could set boundaries with people. Including his ex, who was still in love with him. She would drop by all the time, and he told me that he could never say no to her. Aaargh. It seems to me a Plutonian would have no problem setting boundaries with people.

  41. According to the test, I’m very Plutonian, scoring 29! I would never have thought that, at all. I have no planets in Scorp, and no conjunctions to Pluto, but lots of aspects to Pluto. I’ll have to think about this a little more.

  42. 45… but I don’t feel that I’ve nearly honed my plutonic qualities as they could be, so limp it is (maybe I’m also Neptunian?) However I do perceive everything in terms of energy… we ARE energy and so everyone is constantly manipulating energies to a greater or lesser extent. Indeed awareness & conscious choices are what makes the difference.
    I’m more aware of how to properly use my strong Neptune despite its related quasi permanent confusions.

  43. BTW – “Healing Pluto Problems” is a first rate book… Plutonian or not. and when Pluto hits you by transit you’ll be especially relieved to have it at hand –even more so if you’re NOT Plutonian!

    PS I meant to write above “maybe *because* I am also Neptunian?” (am deftl. Neptunian, no question here.)

  44. 29 *shrug*
    interesting way of looking at it.

    actually, i think of pluto as very low level… like the underlying radiation of the universe sort of thing. unprocessed, deep, and slow moving… like the baseline energy from which anything can be created.

  45. “What energy is honed in you?”
    I’m a weird mixture of Martian, Mercurial, Lunar, Venusian and Neptunian. Neptune hits EVERYTHING in my Chart, including my Chart Ruler and the dispositor of my Sun. On the other hand I also have an Aries Mars which, as well, hits a lot of my planets.. and then my Mercury is conjunct my Sun in Libra, which accounts for my restless mind.

  46. When I meet someone, I can’t help but sense what is off. But, instead of making it about them being wrong in some way, I identify internally with the part of myself that would make that choice/ be off in that way. And I alter/ unwind myself from the inside back to the state of evenness/ nothing/ bliss. When viewed from a Taoist/ Chinese Medicine template, there is no “wrong”, there is just a lack of flow. I also trade the notion of sin with confusion. And when my Aunt tells me if her devotion to Jesus, I can resonate with her words by merely manipulating what I hear: Jesus= Higher Power and wa-la! we are on the same page and can have a deep discussion about faith. I even used to project onto my parents what they would have said if they were parenting properly. The manipulation is constant, but essential when trying to learn to manage abilities without guidance.
    It truly is okay to trust ourselves. When you’re in a lack of flow, life has excellent means to snap you right back onto the path.
    It’s not about changing/ manipulating the outside world. It’s about managing your own insides.

  47. I think that Scorpio and Pluto energy is very overrated. I have noticed that a lot of people like to claim to be “scorpionic” or “plutonian”, even if all they have is a Mercury/Pluto biquintile. Even on Youtube anything Scorpio/Pluto/8th house related has at least 4 times more views than other astrology videos. ?

  48. I’m highly Plutonian.

    Pluto single planet in Scorpio in 3rd house. Oppo my Sun and Asc ruler Mercury.

    Venus, Jupiter, n.node in 8th house inconjunct Pluto

    And also Pluto is the final dispositor in my chart, meaning Pluto is my real chart ruler lol. I don’t like it, being plutonian. But I’m also saturnian aswell, and that one sucks more I think, for now.

    My brother has Scorpio rising and no he is not plutonic, other then his ability to give extremely aggressive looks.

  49. I’m moon conj pluto on the descendant, Scorpio mars/venus/neptune in the 8th. The older I’ve become, the more aware of these energies I’ve become and the greater my ability to work with them. I used to feel afraid when I was younger because I didn’t understand. Wonderful healing energies here when I tap into them.

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