Skeptics And Astrology: Discriminating Or Just An Asshole by Satori
He that cannot reason is a fool.
He that will not is a bigot.
He that dare not is a slave.
~Andrew Carnegie
I was waiting on my coffee at the local shop and went over to say hello to an oldish friend. “Hey, ya dirty hippy,” I said. His hair was longer than usual and in a ponytail. He’s a musician and a scientist and we know each other pretty well. Eventually he asked what was new with me and I brought up some of the new happenings here on the blog. Then he said, “Well it’s just for entertainment value, right? You’re not prognosticating or anything?” with a deprecating snort.
I was shocked. This is someone who was rigorously educated in the scientific method and ought to know better than to dismiss something he knows nothing about, nevermind the fact that I’ve done his chart for him. He also knows me well enough to judge the quality of my mind and the respectability of my opinions in regard to logic. And “blip,” right there my Scorpio Mars flipped the switch. I’ve stood by him and defended him for years. “Blip,” he went from friend to acquaintance in three seconds. Scorpio don’t play that. I doubt he knows he’s been cut, and he may never know.
Do you feel comfortable talking about your interest in astrology? Do you try to explain it to skeptics or do you just let it go?
47 Responses to “Skeptics And Astrology: Discriminating Or Just An Asshole by Satori”
It’s difficult for me, as they would look at me as ‘what is happening to her?’.
I’m a total beginner with an avid interest in learning, so every time I have a few minutes, I’m popping here, or looking around trying to understand an aspect or a transit, or with a book.
Funny enough that even with my limit knowledge, I could tell interesting things of their charts.
They would ask me about it, but they they’d say they have been talking to me in a GENERAL way, not a word about astrology.
Elsa hi,
One of my teachers told me a long time ago that I should never allow myself to get into a situation where I’d feel like I have to explain or justify my work because it’s a huge waste of energy.
It works for me, I can deflect a lot of negativity this way.
xx
I’m very careful. Even though I came to maturity in the late 60s and almost everyone I know has some astrological knowledge, I know most of them would despise my keen interest and certainly would think me deranged for giving astrology so much credit. they haven;t put in the work, but take ‘common wisdom’ at face value.
I’ve had two spats on my FB page this week, one about astrology and one about AGW. Now I’ve only put in a few months hard work on astrology, but I’ve put in several years on researching the ‘AGW’ (climate change) debate – and like any Virgo rising I’m into data, data, data. I have actually READ a lot of those papers, just as I’ve studied dozens of celebrity charts to try to get a handle on which aspects and placements mean what…
As I said yesterday, maybe it;s mainly people in fixed signs, but there are many who won’t consider facts but would rather cling to what they have always believed for fear of admitting they may be wrong… I just wish they wouldn’t insult those of us who have done the work.
So no I never mention astrology except where I think I might get a positive reaction, as I know a certain reaction will result in the same feeling as Satori experienced! I hate feeling badly about my friends…
Having said that I may feel more like trying to defend my interest now that I’m getting a bit more of a handle on it – and now that I see how accurate it is in detail.
I have to agree, though my situation is a bit different in that I also forecast the weather, and talk about astrology all the time.
Being a professional astrologer who teaches and writes helps. I talk openly with skeptics of all kinds, since it helps to be a contrarian as an astrologer.
I focus on the basic science, the fact that the celestial bodies influence our climate and weather, and stay away from the obvious pop-culture mindset of the unlearned until they show true interest.
It’s a shame that friendships have to end based on astrology, but sometimes that’s the way things go.
To answer satori’s question, I am very comfortable saying I am an astrologer but if it’s met with derision, I just change the subject. I really don’t care who thinks I am flake… obviously, as I’ve been writing about astrology online for 10 years!
Satori…
I don’t think people realize when they’re dealing with somebody who takes anything really seriously. Art, science, race, politics. These days you just never know who you’re talking to.
To my mind astrology is more of an art, less of a science. It’s archetypal and doesn’t need science to create useful truths. I would shrug ( and often do) when people dismiss my logic and analysis — it’s what I see, it’s not personal if they don’t.
But people who don’t respect or value my art, now that’s personal, and it hurts.
i remind myself to be careful, often shocked at reactions by otherwise open-minded people
I do not discuss this stuff with people who think I’m a crackpot automatically. What’s the point? They’ve already decided I’m crazy, so why waste their breath.
Er, why waste MY breath…
I assume by default that most people are anti-astrology/think I’m a crackpot until they indicate otherwise. It keeps me safe. Though I did have a moment the other week when I brought an astrology book to my night job to read (slow night) and another volunteer who’s from India spotted it and then proceeded to talk my head off for 2 hours about it… right in front of the new girl, who I really have no idea if she’s “cool” with the tree-hugging hippie conversations we have around here yet. I think she was okay, mind you, but it occurred to me later, “oops, what if she hadn’t been.” Oh well.
Do you feel comfortable talking about your interest in astrology?
Nope.
Do you try to explain it to skeptics
Nope.
or do you just let it go?
I totally let it go. I honestly don’t care to share and don’t care if people believe in it, either.
I feel like it has nothing to do with me, what you believe. I’ve been testing the waters with close friends these days. Eg. my guy has Mars/Mercury/Sun/Midheaven. He was lamenting how he gets loud and how it embarrasses him. I said ‘if it’s any consolation, the loudness can be seen in your chart.’
His answer: ‘it isn’t a consolation.’
Okay–next topic. No biggie:)
satori we have the same ibook:)
“This is someone who was rigorously educated in the scientific method…”
I find these guys the toughest nuts to crack… their scientifically trained minds can’t operate without facts… data… research… trials… etc etc, so I think that’s where the problem lies. They can’t see outside the square their training has bolted them into!
I’d be shocked because you’ve done his chart for crying out loud!!! What, has he just been “humouring” you all this time? Jeeeez Satori!
As far as talking to people about Astrology goes, I pick my battles & it depends what kinda mood I’m in! 
actually, good pick McKenna… I think he was pulling back because he extended too far in actually listening to me and wanted to assert the “I’m too smart for that” position because he subconsciously feels insecure when he breaks with his paradigm of reality. childish. he might as well have pinched me and yelled, “you’re a DUMBHEAD!”
Chrispito… do you talk to yours too? I have to sweettalk mine and sacrifice live animals to it.
um…no. but it’s getting that way. It’s almost 5 years old. geriatric in computer years. I think I will get a desktop next time. I don’t really leave the house with it all that much (maybe 5 times in 5 years).
me too. I’m looking to stretch it out at least one more year. I still think of it as the “new” computer.
I actually like to talk to others about what I’ve been learning here. I’ve never been shy about gently pushing at someone else’s rigid conceptions about the world. Especially in cases where I have some sort of correlation between past experience and the astrology to show for it. I did it last week with my Accountant, Deadhead friend of a friend, where I explained about my Pluto transit of Saturn, and Jerry Garcia’s death.
I remember once my mother referring to me reading The Tibetan Book of the Dead as “another one of ruth’s crazy ideas”. Basically, they’re going to think I’m strange anyway, so at least have a little fun trying to plant a couple of seeds.
I’ve got the same one Satori, crispito. Mine’s geriatric too – about 4 years old, but I had a new hard drive after 18 months, and in August a kind friend installed Leopard for me, the latest kind which the laptop would accept, and it’s made a HUGE difference. He backed up everything before he installed the update, then reinstalled – bliss. I can now watch Elsa’s videos without her looking like a marionette ;^)
ruth I do a little gentle ‘poking the tiger’ too! But I’m careful, I don’t want to be dissed for it.
Yeah, you make an excellent point, McKenna. I think that the downside of basing opinions entirely on facts, let alone the framework of human reason, is that the makeup of the world is far beyond our human standpoint and ability to look for a pattern and extrapolate cause and effect. After all, a philosopher’s pet is negating causal efficacy and pointing out various failures in common sense. If it weren’t, I’m sure that deconstructionists would be no longer justified in pooping all over the walls and calling it theory. (Sorry, little detour, I hate postmodernism). One guy asked me, “Do you believe in God?” And then I started to give my explanation, that I “leave room for the idea of God” and consider it dumb to just discount it based on deductive reasoning. And he pretty much told me how dumb I was. “It is a yes or no question. That’s like asking do you or don’t you believe in unicorns.” What? I don’t know, my instinct (Jupiter in Pisces) is to say that limiting your ideas to the observable fact directly in front of your nose (as opposed to, say, someone else’s) is filtering and therefore tampering with the universe’s truth to fit your framework. I mean just look at how quantum theory is tearing our principles of reason a new asshole. Einstein himself was pretty hip to the idea of mystery.
I just can’t be arsed. If they hate astrology so much, then I late ‘em hate it. Everyone close to me believes in it because they have seen it work.
I don’t want to waste my energy on people who will never believe it no matter what I tell them.
And for some reason, everyone close to me believes me. It’s like I’m a guru whose words are always the truth. It’s weird, but as long as they believe me and astrology, then I’m grand.
Goddamn right, Satori! To hell with ‘em!
I make a slight effort not to talk astrology, and usually fail. :S
I have run into these types one happened to be my X when we split he told me he thought my beliefs were all BS. I knew it was another attempt at a jab but all I said to him and this is what I have said to others for years that is fine you are entitled to your beliefs. That is the reason we were both in the military all those years is for the freedom to believe the way we wish. Do I give 2 cents for what the man thinks especially now. When ever I come across anyone with such closed off thinking I don’t try to explain any thing to them it doesn’t work to waste my breath or time to accomplish nothing whatsoever. Time is way to valuable to waste beating ones head against a brick wall.
Could be a lot simpler…mayhaps he didn’t like you calling him a ‘dirty hippy’ and right there HE learned there was a personal boundary he didn’t know he had. Sounds like YOU were cut first…albeit passive-aggressively.
As my Grandfather was fond of saying…
You can’t put brains in monuments =)
i am pretty public about my interests now. people close to me initially kind of poo=pooed it but they usually start paying attention eventually, after i’m right enough.
i never try to debate the issue. there is NO point in my mind. at this age, i’m OVER it. take me as i am, i don’t require you agree but if you want to make it an issue, bye.
This happened to me too with a friend who’s also had his chart read, often reads his monthly forecasts and… is also a scientist.
When I told him I went to get my chart read with Elsa, he just told me I was being typically insecure and getting into all this mumbo jumbo, and that all astrologers were thieves.
And _that_ flipped my Scorpio Mars switch XD
Recently he was telling me how all the forecasts he’d been reading about himself on various sites were indicating that he should move and how that was exciting cos he WAS going to move and he was happy it was validating, and could I please read his chart and let him know if I see those indications too.
That was when I reminded him of his “all astrologers were thieves”.
Suffice to say, he tried to make up for it by saying “yeah everyone is but you”, etc.
Inconsistent people make me vomit blood.
He might have simply tried and failed to be witty. Men do that ALL the goddamned time.
Regardless, stick to your guns. Sorry, that had to be a shitty moment for you.
I’m careful about the people I talk to about this, because those that are not open enough, will definately tag me as “illuminated”. So far, all my lifelong friends have responded in a very positive way, some have even said, that it didn’t surprise them I had an interest for astrology. Of course it does get my hair up when someone says” they don’t believe in astrology”, it’s like saying I don’t believe in mathematics or I don’t believe in philosophy…
Minus the pony tail, I used to be that guy in the coffee shop, so I can’t be too hard on him. Until about 8 years ago, I thought that astrology was BS, too. Then various minor disasters happened to me, no-one could help, and I had nowhere else to turn. I went to an astrologer, who told me to sit out the storm (Pluto conjunct ascendant and square sun). Since then I have learnt lots about astrology and am a true convert. So why did me and Mr Pony Tail think that astrology was BS? Because that’s what modern culture decrees it to be. While most of us know little or nothing about Science, we consider ourselves to be ‘Scientific’ in the way we see the world. Another obstacle is that astrology is also associated with off-the-wall crazies that nobody ‘normal’wants to be seen dead with.
As for me, and mindful of my previous views on the subject, I don’t mention astrology to anyone unless I know that they’re open-minded on the topic. What’s the point? You can’t convince anyone of anything until they’re ready to believe it. But it is weird, isn’t it – how can people be so convinced that astrology is crap when they know nothing about it, and will cheerfully confess to the fact? But as I say, everyone needs to come to it at the right moment in their lives, because basically when you accept astrology, you’re tacitly agreeing to truly face up to yourself, with all your quirks, warts and weirdness. A tall order for anyone.
When I first discovered astrology (over 30 years ago) I immediately tried to convert all the people around me! (Mars in Sagittarius you know 
– I love a philosophical argument). But as I have matured, I have stopped doing that and I just think – well, if they don’t want to know about it, its their loss. But if I see a spark of interest when I tell someone new that I do people’s astrology charts, I indulge them. I start by saying that the general public actually knows very little about “the REAL astrology, and go from there.
I have actually managed to open a few people’s minds without trying to force them open:-)
People can believe or disbelieve makes no difference to me. I am always kind of shocked though that they can be so adamant with so little knowledge. At least do a little bit of reading before you slam the trapdoor closed.
For scientific types to hold this view when they know what havoc sunspots can create, and know what that teeny tiny chunk of rock Moon can do with the tides on Earth just for 2 examples, to discount Astrology, just shows that they aren’t all that cool with their processing.
I don’t really talk to a lot of people about it because it doesn’t come up often. As I said it makes no difference to me if they don’t believe. Agreeing to disagree is fine, but slamming someone for an opposing view,with absolutely zero knowledge on the subject shows they are a waste of time on that specific topic.
Satori,
There’s nothing wrong with a healthy dose of skepticism when appropriate but there’s an actual term used to describe phony skeptics:
The term pseudoskepticism was popularized and characterized by Marcello Truzzi in response to skeptics who, in his opinion, made negative claims without bearing the burden of proof of those claims.[10]
While a Professor of Sociology at Eastern Michigan University in 1987, Truzzi gave the following description of pseudoskeptics in the journal Zetetic Scholar which he founded:
In science, the burden of proof falls upon the claimant; and the more extraordinary a claim, the heavier is the burden of proof demanded. The true skeptic takes an agnostic position, one that says the claim is not proved rather than disproved. He asserts that the claimant has not borne the burden of proof and that science must continue to build its cognitive map of reality without incorporating the extraordinary claim as a new “fact.” Since the true skeptic does not assert a claim, he has no burden to prove anything. He just goes on using the established theories of “conventional science” as usual. But if a critic asserts that there is evidence for disproof, that he has a negative hypothesis—saying, for instance, that a seeming psi result was actually due to an artifact—he is making a claim and therefore also has to bear a burden of proof.
– Marcello Truzzi, On Pseudo-Skepticism
I guess this term applies to people who are so narrow-minded they can see through a key hole with BOTH eyes! LOL!
“But it is weird, isn’t it – how can people be so convinced that astrology is crap when they know nothing about it, and will cheerfully confess to the fact? ”
michael, that is an excellent observation.
Hehe, no, couldn’t give a crap what people think of me and how I might be “weird”. I generally find critical reactions amusing. The people look like close-minded chowderheads and I kinda like seeing them squirm sometimes when they see I am unruffled and unoffended.
Wow, amazing responses. I am particular struck by the notion that people see astrologers (and I guess by extension psychics/tarot readers) as weird people no one wants to be around as the reason my family members (nuclear family all dead btw) looked askance at me. Tough when it’s people you love. I developed a love for astrology as a child and wanted to share with said family members. Let’s just say it didn’t go well :-/
That happened to me by a so-called friend too. I called him on it to his face though. I told him that this is what I do for a living and I don’t appreciate him making fun of it like that! He was surprised at my confrontation. He immediately apologized, and we agreed to disagree that he doesn’t believe in it, and I do. And that’s fine. I don’t need to ignore him because of it.
Dee,
Strangely enough, my family, who, incidentally are christian, knows I’m into tarot but they don’t seem to care one way or another. It shocks ME! LOL!
Magicmark I think you are very lucky. My family probably would have preferred me to have two heads than to be a metaphysician. I think the challenge has inspired a lot of growth for me, however, and that’s not a bad thing!
My opinion about this subject:
- trying to Explain to skeptics about Astrology is like trying to persuade someone to love and marry you – when that person clearly does not love nor wants to marry you. Why waste your breath? Use it to have a Dialogue with someone who wants to have that Dialogue with you. You know…?
I am comfortable talking about any of my beliefs or interests including Astrology. In fact, just this pass week my boss and I were talking about astrology basics and he was intrigued. I know he has a Taurus Sun but I know nothing more. He seems to have some interest since he could tell me his entire family’s sun signs.
I first got into astrology as a kid because my mom had Linda Goodman’s sun signs. I’ve always been open about my interest in astrology with my family and close friends. And if someone seems receptive I’ll gladly talk about it. But for the most part I keep it to myself – I’m not interested in changing people’s minds. But I do jump at the chance to read someone’s chart if they’re having problems they can’t explain!
I wonder if people’s Uranus or Jupiter placements would provide insight into this question?
I have Uranus-Jupiter in Sagittarius conjunct my ascendant. People close to me pretty much expect me to say/believe kooky things. And I tend to shrink from people who are close-minded to begin with.
My nephew made some deprecating remarks concerning astrology at lunch the other day. We all (Me, my mom, my sister and my niece) looked at him like “are you new here?”
Eva said – “I don’t think people realize when they’re dealing with somebody who takes anything really seriously. Art, science, race, politics. These days you just never know who you’re talking to.
To my mind astrology is more of an art, less of a science. It’s archetypal and doesn’t need science to create useful truths. I would shrug ( and often do) when people dismiss my logic and analysis — it’s what I see, it’s not personal if they don’t. But people who don’t respect or value my art, now that’s personal, and it hurts.”
Astrology is both a science, and an art, for those who practice it professionally.
One of the things people who are interested in astrology must understand is that natal astrology is part of the higher forms of judicial astrology, which is difficult to practice for those not experienced.
The failure in explaining this to others is that most people are not knowledgeable about Natural Astrology, which deals effectively with the physical world – most notable nature, medicine, and the weather.
I’ve proven Astrology to some skeptics by forecasting things they can see – the climate & weather – though there will always be closed-minded skeptics, there is nothing one can do about people who will not open their minds or their own eyes. “you can lead a horse to water…”
The ignorance of Astrology comes from a severe lack of education about the world, time, the climate, and life in general, especially history.
If not for Astrology, many of the sciences and arts people take for granted today would not exist.
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