“However, he does love her, he is loyal, he helps pay the bills, he makes her laugh and will never leave.”

My question is: if he has a drinking problem, how long will that last?

Not sure drinking is a divorceable offense. Drinking & gambling? Maybe. Drinking & cheating? Yes. Drinking & violence? Call the undertaker.

Well I guess I am biased, seeing how I have dated only alcoholics in one form or another. My own bias is that love matters more than the alcoholism… I have only once left someone because of a drinking problem, and in that case not only was it super extreme (and he was *not* pitching in to pay any bills), but there were a lot of other psychological/mental problems (sad story). Other than that, I’d stay with a drunk just because I loved him. (Of course, I’m assuming NO physical abuse or even hint of any. I’ve never ever been in an abusive relationship like that, nor would I ever.)

In fact, the current love of my life – I’m talking vast, soul-deepening, incredibly fortunate love – is a (mild) alcoholic who only gave up drinking — on his own (he didn’t even tell me, lol) — very recently, because his health took a dive south. While we had our share of fights about the drinking and related issues in the past, it was never something that I would issue an ultimatum about, and I never did. On the whole, it hasn’t made much of a difference in our daily life, except that I don’t drink anymore because I hadn’t wanted to contribute that, and I’m indifferent to alcohol myself. Everyone has flaws, and I can accept his. He seems to accept mine, too! We’re married, and I feel honored by his love.

I know some functional alcoholics. someone who I would consider my template for what a Real Man should be, also happens to be a functioning alcoholic.

I don’t think an addiction in itself is necessarily a deal-breaker. our culture is way hung up on impossible mirages of perfection. can you deal with it? would it be better without him than with him? those are the questions I would ask someone in that situation. I would let them decide if they should stay or go. it’s not me and I can’t know what actually works for them. sometimes people think something’s beyond their ability to accept because that’s what “society” says.

Daisy, what do mean it goes against astrology stuff?

The astrology for me… well I have that Jupiter thing going and I see that different cultures deal differently with things so I’m curious what people think about this.

I think maybe it comes down to whether you’re mistreated or not. A lot of alcoholics mistreat the people who love them the most, and some guys who aren’t alcoholics can be huge jerks, too. Obviously. I wouldn’t stay with someone who mistreated me. And none of my past guys ever did. They loved me, and i loved them. I don’t have anything bad to say about them.

Yes different cultures deal with drinking differently & it is interesting to hear what people have to say & their views. But the question about the freind staying with a drunk husband who let’s her down, she has to clean up after him, tolerate a bunch & so on….that’s what I’m refering to. It just doesn’t seem like you can be true to yourself & be happy….I mean really, truthfully happy.

In the way that you present the question, I say if the woman is okay with cleaning up, etc and thinks it is worth the “positives” it is okay to stay with him.. who am I to judge? People may disagree but to me it is the same as being married to someone who is manic depressive, has an eating disorder, etc. ..The man you fell in love with is unrecognizable from the man when he is in his depths of despair.. do you leave or do you stay for those wonderful moments? ” when it is good it is great, when it is bad, it is soo bad”

My granmother, born in 1910, was the youngest of 12. Six boys were all alcoholics and her five sisters were all obese. She always referred to her alcoholic brothers as the either ” the one who gambled when he was drunk, the ones who couldn’t keep a job and asked for money from the dad all the time, the one who woudl binge and then disappear for months, etc.. TO her, there was a clear delineation with the alcoholism and how the person was drunk.. she could forgive some of them and not others. But she swore she would never marry a man who drank (not even a drop)

. I don’t think much as changed in all these years. She saw how the disease can wreck a family although none of her brothers ever divorced.

Conditions and cultural conditioning can change what is “acceptable” pretty fast when it comes to alcohol consumption.

I remember in the glory days of the inner child and John Bradshaw, et.al… when AA met psychotherapeutic practice in a big way. I remember crashing and burning in the late 1980′s, and landing in treatment for deptression Alcohol not an issue. Of the many, many issues, alchohol was not one of them (nor any other substance).

At the time, they asked me about my history w/alcohol. “I don’t have a drinking problem… I drink, I get drunk, I fall down, no problem!!” I remember that T-shirt from my Wisconsin college days, when we had a tradition of extreme brandy consumption to uphold. So, I was labeled an alchoholic, and spent plenty of time in those bloody meetings (like 7 years); until my trip to Italy, when I thought, this is stupid, and had a glass of wine with family. That was the end of that.

As far as living with folks who drink: I think that dehumanizing people or oversimplifying relationships on these kinds of grounds is just plain stupid. Some people drink (even pretty hard by my standards) and stay kind and productive for their entire natural lives. Other folks don’t, or stop, and you wouldn’t want to touch them with a ten-footer. On yet another hand (need to grow me some more), a beloved friend of mine who “went back out” in an unhealed, guilt-ridden context, is now dead of drink. His sobriety wasn’t so pretty, and his dedication to his family continued wet and dry. He was, however, better behaved, if angrier, when dry. One must think for oneself about the subject.

Welcome, Marlene.

I have a friend exactly like this. When she married she wasn’t aware of the addiction. She has wanted to leave several times. I think it’s more the lying and sneaking around to drink plus she’s a virgo with Scorpio rising and can’t stand the weakness.

The “day job” has involved a lot of international travel over the years so I’ve had the good fortune to visit a number of countries and experience and learn about their cultures. So here is my completely unscientific, anecdotal response.

I’m struck by how western Europeans and Americans are so different in their drinking habits. Americans will drink for the sole purpose of getting completely shit-faced. Most western Europeans wouldn’t be caught dead stupid drunk like that. But they sure can drink a LOT – but know when to cut themselves off.

My “oma” (German for grandma) would have two Manhattans and at least a six pack of beer every night. Never once did I see her stumbling drunk. And when her Dr. told her she had to give up alcohol because of medication she was taking, she didn’t think twice about switching to O’Doul’s.

Drinking a lot and being an alcoholic are not the same things – one can see the difference in the brain and no one is sure why one person can just drink a lot and another be an alcoholic.

As far as changing attitudes in our culture towards alcoholism, the difference is affected families are now free to talk about their pain, without stigma, and get support. 50 years ago, a woman wouldn’t have had the means to leave an alcoholic husband – how would she earn a living? So alcoholism was a deep, dark family secret that people would have to suffer in silence. Thank God people don’t have to live this way anymore!

I definitely think attitudes and perceptions have changed in the American culture. One of my favorite movies is The Graduate… They’re constantly offering up cocktails. Also, look at the old James Bond movies. My parents were also from that era and social group for whom having a cocktail everyday after work was the norm. I personally think there is a big difference between alcohol use, even every day, and alcohol abuse. I think there’s been big shift in attitude about alcohol over the past few decades toward the negative, so that it has become a much more black and white issue, there’s less grey. Either alcohol is used in excess and abused or not used at all. There are less people now-a-days (although they exist and I consider myself one of them) who use alcohol moderately and responsibly, as parts of meals or in social settings.

In terms of being in a relationship with a drinker, it’s really up to the individual what they are willing to put up with. I wouldn’t be able to handle someone who embarrassed me or needed to be taken care of because they drink, even if they loved became paid the bills. But that’s just me.

This is a hot button topic, and I’m going to answer before I read what anyone else has said, because I want to say my piece and walk away.

I grew up with an alcoholic father. It was frequently not pleasant. My dad’s a pretty decent guy, but he can be nasty when drunk, and until he got older, he would screw anything he could, while married to my mother. However, he also kept his job, and even advanced in it. I think he did the best he could with what he’s got. I’ve also secretly wondered if he drank to cope with giving away a piece of his soul.

I married an alcoholic. My ex wasn’t an alcoholic when we got together, but he always had some sort of addiction/escapism going. I just got pulled in by being the addiction for the first year. For a long time I brushed it off, told myself he wasn’t as bad as my father (if anything, he was easier to get along with drunk.) He didn’t chronically cheat on me. But in the middle of my marriage he did get drunk enough to cheat on me once, and later it was an affair that was the catalyst to the end of the marriage. The drinking, nor the affair wasn’t what ended the marriage. I would say it was my reaction to the drinking, among many other things, combined with the fact he made a life of making other people happy, with the exception of me, that ended the marriage. I feel just as lonely single as I did married, that says something to me, and that’s a whole ‘nother story.

I participate in Al-Anon, which many here know, and for those who don’t, it’s a 12-step recovery program for relatives and friends of alcoholics. Through Al-Anon I have learned how to live my own life, and mind my own business. Other peoples’ drinking is their own business. This has brought me large measures of peace and happiness. I divorced my alcoholic. I have heard plenty of stories of people who have stayed with their alcoholic significant others, and have managed to have the same peace and happiness I have alone.

Alcoholism is a disease, but drinking is just a symptom. Gambling, drugs, shopping, reading, gaming, eating, sex, relationships, are all symptoms. Some of them have more stigma than others. The American Psychiatric Association only recognizes a few of these, and only recognizes them if they interfere with work and social activities. Many people use all the things listed above to cope, but it doesn’t damage their work or social lives.

I will walk wide circles around active alcoholics and other substance abusers for a long time because I can get crazy around them. That is my problem, my symptom. As for whether or not to leave one? That’s an individual choice. My life has been enriched by walking away from my alcoholic. Another may just be dropped in a hole of misery. It’s about making the best choice for your well-being.

I would tell her to run far and run fast.
He is a noose around her neck. Alcoholics
have one goal and that is to hit bottom and take everyone with them. She needs to leave for self preservation.

My first thought was how “Ann Landers” used to say “would you be better off with or without him?” Everyones situation is different. Are there children? How old are they and how long have they been married? Can she support herself if she leaves? I think if she’s unhappy she should find a way to leave.
My Dad was from Scotland and they do love the whiskey. But he worked 7 days a week and he didn’t get “drunk”. He and his best friend were carpenters and enjoyed the bar after work. Shots and beers and a few games of pool before going home for dinner.

did my comment hit the spam filter or something?

I should clarify my statement about most of the people I know having addictions.
That was pretty flippant and not actually true.

*lifts the needle off the record*

I believe alcoholism is both progressive and ultimately terminal. That said, the progression can be faster or slower depending upon the person.

I left an alcoholic because I couldn’t stand having my happiness depend upon his attaining sobriety which I judged was a long shot. I believe in cutting my losses short.

I’ve also lived an Irish woman who seemed to have no problem stepping in as a caregiver for various drunken boyfriends, relatives, etc. I’m not even sure she considered them drunks.

But if anyone doubts that living with an alcoholic doesn’t cause misery just hang out in a few alanon meetings.

p.s. re the initial story re the friend with a drunk husband, If he’s so great and loves her he can move out (to spare her all the bullshit that comes with his drinking) and still give her support etc until he sorts out his drinking.

After I dropped my comment into the box earlier I went to the grocery store — a big supermarket, one of three in the upscale area I live in. When you walk in the door, if you just keep walking, what you’ll run into is a huge array of liquor bottles, wine, beer, every type of distilled spirit and champagne at every price point including Dom Perignon. “Huge array” doesn’t really describe the area I’m talking about — I’m saying you start walking at the front of the liquor aisle and before you get to the end you’ve gone half a block, and if you turn around and walk up the next aisle there is *another* double aisle of alcohol including a refrigerated section full of beer and chilled wine. There is also a locked cabinet with expensive spirits, Special Absolut Vodka and Crown Royal and whatever else they keep under lock and key.

But just in case you missed the enormous liquor section, there is wine paired with *every* type of food in the store. There’s wine displayed with the meats. With the desserts. With the bread. And not only that, there is wine on every endcap at the the front of the store and if you *still* didn’t get the hint, don’t worry, there are displays in front of the checkouts of wine paired with whatever crazy seasonal thing they came up with, plus stacked up pallets of beer matched with football mugs and glasses and patio furniture and who knows what else.

Less than a mile down the street is a liquor store.

Another half mile: another supermarket just exactly like the one I described.

These outlets are all over the city, and my city is pretty small, and that doesn’t even include the CVS Pharmacy which sells liquor and the restaurants and bars that serve designer beer and flights of wine and on…and on…and on…

Now the reason that stuff is there in such voluminous quantities has got to be because somebody is drinking it. I mean of course not you, and not anybody in your family who never touches a drop or has been going to AA for twenty years, and not your Uncle Ted who only has two beers at Thanksgiving — of course not you or anybody you know or are related to, but *somebody* is putting away all that alcohol or it just plain would not be there.

I’m just talking about the liquor, I’m not talking about the xanax or the oxycontin or the vicodin or the Nicorette Gum, the bolivian sugar, the 420 or the tweakers.

I have the deepest respect and sympathy for people who say their lives have been ruined by alcohol and I think meth especially is a bad, bad drug that makes people’s brains into soup in short order and turns them into reevers, but the point is *somebody* is putting this stuff into their bodies and I think as a society pretending everybody is hitting the rack at 10 PM after a cup of chamomile and a nice Miss Marple story we’re really off our heads.

It’s just not true. People are on stuff. They’re drinking hard, is what I think, and if they’re not it’s because they got a scrip from a doctor for Zoloft and they have to give up their gin and tonics. Our country is sauced is what I really think. We can pretend that people who drink are some isolated incident that pops up every other generation in some families and ruins everybody’s trust and faith in humanity for the next twenty years, or we can go to the store and check out that endcap, and the fact that you can get a special sixpack carton to put your winebottles in and if you get the carton, you get ten dollars off.

Finns and alcohol, now, here’s a topic. They say that in the late 19th century, when Finns started to arrive in the US, saloons Upstate Minnesota would keeps signs out telling “No Indians, Finns or Dogs” allowed. The common view both in the US and here was Finns could not handle their liquor, a bit like Native Americans, who seemed to spiral to alcoholism (of course, this wouldn’t have been the word back then) quite quickly. Later genetic studies have confirmed there actually may be some truth to this, but I think that there might have been a degree of racism involved too. Finns were viewed as less developed than, lets say Germanic speaking Swedes or Norwegians.

Nowadays, heavy drinking is definitely part of our culture. Getting blasted is more socially accepted it would have been 50, when the temperance movement still had some weight especially at the countryside or even 30 years ago. Ironically, the attitude towards alcoholism has hardned. There’s some Social Darwinism in the air – occasional heavy drinkers see people getting stuck to different substances as weaker individuals. I think that in many cases they should simply consider themselves lucky. They do have a genetic ability to deal with the stuff their friends might not have had.

As for the marriages, well, my own grandmother spent 50 years of her life with a guy who was drunk at least 30 of them. He was a WWII vet, and not an overall nice person (basicly, one of the biggest SOBs I’ve ever known). Frankly speaking, I cannot see many women not themselves addicted as well doing the same today. It’s not just about money – my grandmother, as many of the women her generation, especially from poorer families, worked outside home all her life except when the children were small. It’s definitely because the change in culture. It’s acceptable to divorce, especially in order to offer childen stability. In fact, a woman who chooses to continue living with a known drunk with their children, may be viewed as a “bad mother”.

So, we do accept heavy drinking, but alcoholism is an other thing all together.

I don’t mind people drinking, I do mind them getting drunk. I have zero tolerance for drunkenness or alcoholism.

Others have mentioned different drinking styles in Europe. I spent time living in France and noticed that, at least where I was, people drank with lunch and dinner every day but the wine was usually diluted with water. When they went to a bar, it was a social occasion that involved, at most, one or two drinks which lasted the evening -the point was to talk, socialise, not to get drunk.

In Britain and Ireland, on the other hand, people go into the pub, usually on empty stomachs, with the express purpose of getting drunk. There seems little responsibility or maturity about it.

Welcome, Jane.

Speaking of the culture split, alcoholism as a disease is treated differently in Europe than it is in the US, as you all probably know. US takes a total abstinence approach wherein you must proclaim that you are powerless to the disease, etc.. I think this is a very bad approach, for the most part. In Europe, a moderation approach is taken, if I am correct, and I think this is healthier. Maybe this girl’s man can learn to moderate. I, personally, believe that alcoholism is treatable, especially in light of new theories of brain function/learning and memory. Check out a book called “The Brain That Changes Itself”, if you’ve not. If your partner has a problem, you don’t bail on them. You help them. But not to your own detriment. If the guy just cannot make any progress then I think she should leave him when it is economically feasible for them both to make a split. I agree with someone up there who said it was a waste of her life to remain in that role forever.

For me it’s a health issue. An addict of any substance (food included) is a person who is destroying their body rapidly. A bigger question is, regardless on one’s tolerance for one’s spouse becoming habitually inebriated, what kind of relationship can one have with someone who is drunk all the time, despite how well they may be at functioning otherwise? Even if they are managing to stay sober long enough to hold down a job, the remainder of the time they are checked out. I would leave.

Just reread my comment, I sound very judgemental, it’s merely because I live in the City and all the nonsense that goes on is on my doorstep.
I love the odd glass of red! I think moderation is the key.

I am going to weigh in on this because you have literally described a true situation with one of my gal pals from High School. In fact she married him knowing he was a serious drunk. That all being said she loves him as he is for what he is and though she wishes he would not drink as much as he does more socially than as an occupation he was a drunk when they met and still is so she accepts it and when he is not drunk he is a brilliant office manager for their Tax business. I think that it comes down to a personal choice. There are usually issues the that are so painful for the person who is the drunk they can’t face or accept so he or she self medicates their problems away same thing with any one who abuses any substance there is nearly always some shadow issue in the background it doesn’t matter how large or small or even if it is invented or imagined in order for them to have an excuse to use the substance of their choice till they are numb. I personally believe that lots of people start out using Alcohol or even some drugs in a party or social situation then after a while it is the only way they feel they can enjoy themselves before they know it they are hooked on it they feel they must have it to feel normal or be socially accepted. At least this is what I have found to date.

The thing about alcoholism, Elsa, is that it doesn’t exist in a vacuum. People who have substance abuse problems of any kind invariaby have some pretty serious emotional/psychological baggage that make them far less than ideal partners. I’m trying to saying that they are bad people and I’m not saying that they can’t also have some really sterling qualities as well, it’s just that people turn to substances because they can’t functionally cope with something on an emotional/psychological level.

There can be a profound lack of emotional availablility in alcoholics/addicts that makes it very difficult for a spouse/partner to be truly happy. Sure on the surface they may be able to keep down a job, might be able to be faithful, etc., but as you mentioned people in this situation often let loved ones down, repeatedly. It is the fact that one can’t really rely upon someone with a drinking problem that is particularly problematic when it comes to maintaining relationships. Neglect is much more incidious than abuse, IMO, because it is much harder to detect….

With an alcoholic, the bottle always comes first. How could someone ever really be happy knowing that they’re playing second fiddle to an inanimate object? I would hope that in a scenario like you have mentioned, the alcohic would be confonted with their problem and they would make the choice to give up the drink, but that’s not really going to happen when there is always someone there to cover for them, make excuses, and enable the behavior. For an alcoholic/addict to really want to give it up they have to be able to appreciate the consequences of their actions and hit whatever their individual “bottom” is. If someone is there and passively enabling their addiction via complacency, well…..What’s the incentive for them to change?

The other piece of this which I haven’t touched on is that alcoholism is a progressive disease. One may be functional for months or even years, but something will eventually happen to make the problem worse. Whether this is the loss of a loved one, getting laid off at work, etc. the lack of coping skills present in an alcoholic/addict makes them vulnerable to a worsened state of addiction.

I’ve lived with alcoholics/addicts all my life so I have a very intimate understanding of this disease from many angles. I’ve joked over the years that alcoholism doesn’t run in my family – it gallops, which is why I’ve never been a drinker. I’ve been to many 12-step meetings over the years than and heard the stories of many who have descibed themselves as “functional” alcoholics, but all their stories had one thing in common. They say that there was a moment when they became acutely aware of what the drink was costing them, specifically with regards to their relationships with others. This could be with a spouse, a family member, their children, a friend, but every one of them has said that it has negetively impacted their relationships in some way. It’s the toll that this illness takes upon relationships which makes it so sad – it cuts people off from those that love them. It is for this reason that I don’t think any relationship can work when there is addiction involved….

My father was an alcoholic. He abandoned me at age 2, after my first major surgery. Like…the day after. I’ve seen him one time since then, when I was six. The one of the three sisters who share his genes that will speak to me told me years ago “Some people shouldn’t be parents. Our father is one of them.”

My oldest brother not only drank to excess in his middle age, but did every drug he could get his hands on in the late 60s/early 70s. Spent more time in Juvie or living running from the cops than he did at home. I was about three, I think, the night he nearly killed my grandmother right in front of me. Had her pinned on the couch and was choking her. When I was about 8, he broke my aunt’s wrist because she wouldn’t lend him money. I love him dearly, but it was several years after Mom died before I would spend a night in his house when we’d go to visit. We’d stay in a hotel. I was scared to death of him.

Did I do drugs? Yep. Love the ganga weed, man. Did a bit of speed, but never never never anything in a needle or in my nose, other than ONE snort of cocaine the coke dealer at work (we had several dealers, each with his own “niche”) gave me for my 21st birthday. Made me want to sneeze, and that’s all. Thankfully.

My ex was a closet alcoholic. He functioned just fine, and never let on for many years that he was drinking. Went to work, came home, sat on his ass in front of the computer games. The only way I found out he was drinking initially was that I had a bottle of rum left from when we had company up one summer…when the next summer came around and I was going to make Coladas at a party I was going to – bottle was right where I left it, but empty. No more booze in the house from there on. So as the marriage reached it’s final gasps, he would go to town to buy candy or something for the kids, buy a few of the big cans of beer you can get in the convenience store, slam them down and dispose of the evidence away from home…and drive back to our place in the country. The kids and I knew he was drinking, but could find no evidence. I knew it was 100% OVER when he came to pick me up at work on Valentines night 2008. He couldn’t even walk, he was slurring his speech. I was mortified. I didn’t even ask that time – I hissed in his face. “You are drunk!!!!”

While he worked, and didn’t sleep around or anything, his level of apathy with the family as a whole grew to the point of ridiculous. He was there in body, but he was not part of the family unit for the last ten years we lived together.

Even bringing home the check and not fucking around on me, it wasn’t worth it. I didn’t get married to raise my children alone. I hated what the children saw, and knew, about his drinking. I knew it was genetic – his dad used to drink a fifth of Beam a day, minimum. He got alcohol poisoning, the dr wanted to put him in rehab, and and he said No. I’ll do it myself. So even after we moved here and he was “sober”, he was a dry drunk and could be a real son of a bitch. The ex had wanted to move here because he had never known his dad sober.

Not all that much difference between someone hammered 24/7 and a dry drunk, other than the slurred words and smell.

Now, our daughter is 12, and lives with me six miles from where he lives with our 18 year old son. Our son wants nothing to do with booze or drugs (thank God!) but he learned the apathy far too well. I have no idea what’s going to happen to him. And the ex never takes a minute to call our daughter, rarely sees her unless he’s working when we go into the store. I believe he is not drinking now – I knew when he was drinking hard because he was a total asshole to me during those months – but still our girl is left in the cold.

What would I tell my friend? “Get out before it eats you alive.” If she has children living with him? “Get out and save your kids from growing up in that kind of environment.”

Even if they aren’t beating the hell out of you, the loss of self is crippling, and it takes a very very long time to get your shit back together after living with that.

Tehre are some brilliant and deeply moving posts here, and one which totally resonates for me is Althea’s @ 57. She says:
“For an alcoholic/addict to really want to give it up they have to be able to appreciate the consequences of their actions and hit whatever their individual “bottom” is.”

This is in my experience absolutely the case which is why family and especially friends should never act as enablers. The line I take, is to tell the person I love very firmly that they are over the edge, over the level which is just heavy drinking; that I will have no part of it and won;t continue the relationship unless they give up drinking. I did that with my own husband about three months after we met. There were many stories about his legendary boozing but he was dry when I met him and had been for many months. He got drunk on our way back to England, and stayed that way for two weeks. Dried out when I issued an ultimatum, then went on another binge a month later. I locked up the money – the booze was all gone – and dosed him with valium for three days. Then told him if he ever touched another drop, we were finished… and to his credit he didn’t until after we had split and I’d gone back to England. BUT he had an addictive personality and after six years or so, he started smoking dope til he fell over instead of drinking. I saw no difference.

I coudl write all day on this subject as I;vbe known many many alcoholics, including my adoptivbe mother. Ma and the ex were at the opposite end of the spectrum:

Ma was a functioning alcoholic who drank every day of her life. After she was widowed it got gradually worse, until she was starting at around 10.30 am, and you’d find glasses and bottles semi-hidden all over the place. After she died I found all the booze bills – really scary how much she’d been spending; and it messed up all her relationships esp with my sister and me. She was an aggressive drunk (whisky and red wine, they’re killers). Even after I stopped seeing her she’d phone me on my birthday or Xmas day and scream abuse at me – then later had no recollection of the call at all. Stories I could tell… I grew up in the upper middle class sector of English society where drink is an inevitable social lubricant. Everyone drinks a little – or a lot – every evening, often at lunch – and all social life revolves around drinking.

My ex by contrast was a ‘binge’ alcoholic. Most of the time he’d be sober and a lovely and quite shy person, very responsible and hard working. When he drank, he just sank booze all day and night for two or three weeks until he collapsed – it was quite terrifying. His pattern was set up during his time in the navy – he joined when they still had the rum ration (which was over 50% proof iirc). Naval leave always involved getting absolutely wrecked, it made you part of the team – but if you didn’t show up for duty you were put on a charge for ‘self-inflicted injury’.

I’ll address the cultural side later, I’ve lived in several countries so I have quite a bit to say about that… And I’ve always been around very heavy drinkers so I know a lot about all this

Healthy, Happy, Stable people hang with
Healthy, Happy, stable People. If we find living with an addict tolerable, we should take a good look in the mirror.

i don’t know if people’s attitudes have changed much or not. those that are okay with it don’t usually ante up the info because others aren’t.

if it were a friend, i would accept and support their choice. personally, i’d hope they eventually decided to move on, though. long term, i’d expect health problems from the drinking to cancel out financial benefits. the companionship, it’s not mine to say how valuable it is to them. but personally, i’d rather be alone than in that situation.

My dad was a drunk. Had to visit him in the bar to get grocery money. He beat me for no reason. Had a BF who also drank. His whole world revolved around getting that drink around 4 p.m. or so. Every vacation place we visited looked the same–it was always inside an Irish pub. I was a teetotaler and found myself drinking for him. Crazy! Sorry to say, I’m glad I’m no longer part of this world. Now I see my son drinking and it scares me. He’s in his 20s.

I, too, grew up in an alcoholic family, and have seen some family members ruin their lives with drink.
But there have also been others who drank a fair amount and did not. Nor did they put alcohol before their families, jobs, etc. So I think it can really go both ways. As in many cases, it depends upon the person.
As such, I think willpower and motivation are highly underrated. AA and others say it’s a progressive disease, and that abstinence is the only way (and for some it may well be), but could it be this black and white thinking that keeps people from getting help?

I grew up with an alcoholic, and I married one (he was also a cocaine addict I was to find out).

I’m tired of flinching at someone’s mood, tired of having to be mean for self defense, tired of physical violence, tired of verbal savaging. There are some men who are gentle drunkards, but they’re few and far between.

Going back to the original question, my only answer would be it’s up to her. And it really is. I personally wouldn’t even stay with someone if he continually lets me down, as it’s a show of disrespect. If he put his drinking ahead of me, gone. I wouldn’t cover for a drunk, as he needs to experience the consequences of his behaviors. Sure he has good traits, but to me the bad outweighs them, and I know I’d personally be better off alone. Some women can take those bads with the goods and would enjoy staying in that relationship.

It all depends on preferences and probably previous experience with alcoholics. Mine have ALL been bad, and there’s been plenty of experiences. It’s a serious dealbreaker for me. I also tend not to strongly need a relationship, I often enjoy long periods of going without.

Having grown up in a family where there was a lot of drinking and drama, think I’ve looked pretty carefully at relationships and avoided the drinkers… oh not an occasional partier but the steady slogger.. it’s too familiar and I have to run the other way, having seen the damage..

Gosh, this is a complicated topic. I have no experience with alcoholics (thankfully). Trying to wrap my head around all these points of view.
It’s like the issue is somewhat like a Venn diagram, the concern is about his issues, her issues, and the intersection between them that is their relationship (as well as the collective that has to do with the situation).

What makes me wonder is the Saturn in Libra angle of it. She is trapped and sinking is one factor. Then there’s the factor of who’s gonna take care of the guy? I think the knee jerk trend of “get rid of him, get rid of the alcoholic” is behind the fact that the guy is going to get left in the lurch. The “crackhead uncle” who gets left out by the family. I wonder if there’s a healthy way to establish boundaries, not martyr oneself, and simultaneously have a loving healthy relationship with someone who’s floundering. I wonder how the “we can work it out” pressure is going to play into it. The reason it’s getting highlighted is the shocking attitude change that Saturn in Libra heralds. Then there is the idea that, I think, alcoholics are sometimes rendered inhuman especially in the media as damaging, hung up on the demon bottle, etc. Which makes me come up with the “they are human and should be given a chance angle.” Perhaps addiction is a hard mental state to understand.

Then again, I am someone that can be left in the lurch because I have a light addiction to procrastination and fucking up. People can and might give up on me when I need them.

Then there’s the whole “American society pigeonholes alcoholism among other conditions (the whole mental health dialogue of the DSM IV, etc.), but why aren’t gambling, shopping addiction, and coffee on the same level?” The whole thing about American insistence on dualism and putting things into categories. Which brings the idea that a functioning alcoholic is not always in a downward spiral, etc.

Glenn was talking about some qualifications in the military about functioning alcoholics.

I have some knowledge about people who believe that they can “function” without help or medication with certain conditions including being able to control their own nervous breakdowns. I’m pretty sure that these things cannot be controlled by the will. So my

I come from a family of high functioning alcoholics. Both my dad and grandpa were heavy drinkers. Yet they never missed work because of drinking, they were never mean drunks, just the opposite, they were very charming and funny when drinking.

So I am not against a man just because he drinks. But the situation you describe is sick and unhealthy. Regardless of the reason for the man’s behavior, he is not acting as an adult. His wife is treating him like a child. If she is happy being the only adult in the relationship, it is her decision. However, the relationship won’t mature as the years go on.

Think about it, if it was a mother who cleaned up and covered for her child throughout the years and never required the child to be responsible, it would be an unhealthy relationship.

“if it was a mother who cleaned up and covered for her child throughout the years and never required the child to be responsible, it would be an unhealthy relationship.”

excellent point. With my own experience of being in a relationship with an alcoholic, there is frequently (if not most of the time) an aspect of waiting–whether it’s waiting for him/her to get drunk the way you know they will, waiting for him/her to black out, etc

I would speak to him while he was drinking and have no idea if he was even going to remember the question or not. I could go on but the more I think of this–no I would absolutely never want to be with someone checked out of reality like this again.

I remember too–in the months after breaking up, I’d have one drink and feel tipsy. I have a fairly high tolerance for alcohol—I think it was simply that I was so accustomed to being on high alert that while we were together, I wouldn’t even feel buzzed. It’s like sleeping with one eye open.