Saturn In Libra / Saturn Transit The 7th House: Mathematics Of Marriage and Composite Charts – Predicting Divorce
Just Blathering…
I am learning about how people relate and I didn’t mean to, but I came across the name, John Gottman who is a psychologist who wrote among other things, The Mathematics of Marriage: Dynamic Nonlinear Models.
This guy studied relationship in an effort to be able to predict who would divorce and who would not with very limited data and he came up with a super effective formula. He claims that if he can can listen to a couple talk about *anything, for an hour, he can predict with 95% accuracy if they will be married or divorced within 15 years. If he listens for just 15 minutes, he can still predict this with 90% accuracy.
Now eventually he got so good at this, he found he could eavesdrop on a couple eating dinner in a restaurant and have a pretty good idea where they were headed.
In short, he found that marriages have a sort of DNA. In other words, the way we relate to another is hardwired and in terms of astrology, this is very interesting.
I thought of the composite chart as the DNA of a relationship because it’s my experience if you are hooked up with someone, the composite chart is inescapable. For beginners, a composite chart is a chart of the relationship between two people.
I think it’s interesting that science is now making the same kind of claims astrologers are punished for. That is, that these things are predictable! I don’t know why this makes people so uncomfortable.
Personally, I’d just as soon have this guy listen to me talk to my lover and tell me in advance the relationship was going nowhere! That it was not going to satisfy! And if he said, “You two are very fortunate,” I would like that as well!
How do you feel about a guy being able to predict the future of your relationship after sharing lunch with you and your partner? What about an astrologer looking at a few charts and doing same?
38 Responses to “Saturn In Libra / Saturn Transit The 7th House: Mathematics Of Marriage and Composite Charts – Predicting Divorce”
Mostly it makes me wish it wasn’t considered “weird” to ask a potential date for their birth data! 
-K
For the record, Dr. Gottman has been studying married couples for 20 years. He doesn’t just listen to them or eavesdrop, he actually videotapes them for an extended period of time while he’s out of the room. He will then do follow-up work. It’s only after he studied thousands of couples over a 20 year period that he came up with the predictive parameters.
Right now I can only remember two of the predictive criteria for failure: contempt and stonewalling. If you think about it, that makes a lot of sense. But he did find that there are different kinds of happy marriages: some people loved to argue, others hated conflict, etc.
Btw, he was originally a mathematician who got sidetracked into psychology. He is now working on studying how same-sex couples behave with one another and apparently there a couple of differences between happily united same-sex couples and happily united hetero marriages.
Funny that you should post this today, Elsa, bc I had a question about composite charts that I posted on another astrology site.
We wil listen but we are all going to end up doing what ever our dang old hearts tell us to do. You know what I mean?
I would LOVE that.
I can dig it. I like the idea.
Unnerving stuff. Guess it helps to use the science to “minimse risk” from potentially negative relationships. But like Cassi says… some will just follow the heart. Besides… risk is just that… risk. The potential for behavioural change has not been taken into account…
Just my 2 cents.
I think I’d be interested in knowing, just because, like right now, I have some gut feelings about my future with my husband that I’d love some outside confirmation on. 
Hmm, no, what Gottsman does is not really about risk. He observes the way that two people relate to each other. So, for instance, if someone is putting you down, not listening to you, not acknowledging you, etc., Gottsman will say: This relationship isn’t going to survive. See what the difference is? He’s not gauging compatibility. He’s observing a relationship dynamic. There’s a difference. For instance, we’ve all known people who were extremely compatible and then they got together and the relationship flopped. And it seems like a mystery, right? And then we know the opposite, right, people who don’t seem like they’re compatible at all and for some reason the relationship works. In the latter case, you’d think it’d be more of a risk to get involved with a person who’s not compatible. In fact, it may seem like there’s no risk at all going into a relationship with someone who shares a lot of interests, likes, traits, etc. For instance, it’s the difference between synastry aspects and a composite chart.
Gottsman is not evaluating each person individually and predicting the level of risk involved in pursuing a relationship with that person. He doesn’t say anything about risk at all; he says that if there are four danger signs present during a couple’s interaction, that relationship is doomed. And the difference is that these people are already in the relationship; these aren’t people who are making up their minds about whether or not they want to get involved with each other. I’m not sure if I’m being clear, I just wanted to show that there’s a subtle difference. In a way, what Gottsman is doing takes a lot less work than astrological analysis.
there was a whole this american life episode about this, with an interview with gottman himself and excerpts from some of these taped interviews with couples. it was fascinating. if you go to the TAL website, you can type in “gottman” in the search engine, and it will pull up an episode called “the sanctity of marriage.” you can download the audio file to your desktop or mp3 player and listen to it–it is truly revealing!!!
This is interesting. My husbands therepist just reccomended another of Gottmans books for Storm to read!
I LOVE Gottman and his Four Horsemen… I’ve always wished he could eavesdrop on relationships I’ve been in and pull me aside later to give me the skinny.
I love the idea and very very tempting but then I think about the few relationships that I have been in.. Each relationship I have learned SOOOOO much about myself and what I really want/need in a relationship that I am glad I went through it. If I hadn’t I would still have just a fantasy of what I want. I really feel(on my good days ) that those relationships have/are preparing me for the right one and wouldn’t give up my past experiences for the world.
Actually, I’d be more inclined to trust the astrology. This guy is looking at couples at a particular point in time; what if both are having an off day? I understand, the point is that the couple is working within a certain dynamic no matter what the external stuff is- but I don’t know if you can say that is a consistent state.
I think astrology gives the imprint, and I think it’s an accurate way to see the raw material of the relationship- but as Elsa says, it’s how the energy is directed, and that’s the big question mark that I have about this guy. So he can see what kinds of behavior are detrimental to a relationship, which lead to divorce– but beyond that, can he say much else about the quality or strengths and weaknesses of the partnership?
I’m not dismissing this guy, just saying that ok, he is sensitive to the usual and general behaviors of couples who either divorce or stay together–but that doesn’t tell the whole story about the relationship. It’s an interesting skill, but not all relationships are pass or fail based on if there was a marriage or if it lasted. They are also a huge tool for growth so…that’s what I think, this fine fall morning
That would be very cool in my books. The amount of time and heartache I have spent on marriages that have turned into a disaster when I could have had more time with the right person would have been a boon if you ask me.
My first marriage was a deal marriage those almost never work but then it was never supposed to no heartache over that one don’t even remember that husbands birth date. The only reason this marriage lasted 3 years was that I had a son the last year of the marriage.
However my second husband was born 7 September 1949 and this marriage was a different story altogether. We were legally married for 19 years the first seven years were good the next 12 sucked rocks and broken glass through a straw with brief periods of deceptive light that looked as if we were going to make it.
Currently I am married to the most wonderful man his DOB: 21 March 1957 and we were married 27 December 1997 has been wonderful I really can not imagine being in an intimate relationship with anyone else.
Whatever this guy’s track record I don’t believe he would have been able to accurately predicate the outcome of my last relationship based upon hearing us chat. The problems we had were out-of-sight like the twelfth house.
I love that. I think it’s awesome that he could just listen to a couple and know if they’d make it as a couple or not. I’m curious as to what the defining factors are and how those specifically would relate to the composite chart. (That sounds so fascinating!) As for an astrologer doing the same, I think that they have a leg up because they have a lot more information to work with. (And I hate that astrology is considered weird, but ya know, the masses don’t tend to like great ideas – until someone cool comes along and makes it the norm, and if it weren’t weird, it would probably become like religion: taken into way too many contexts and probably watered down.)
Its got merit, and just because two people are headed to divorce does not mean the marriage was a failure. We need to interact and get our issues mirrored back to us to figure out what they are. Otherwise we’ll never grow.
“just because two people are headed to divorce does not mean the marriage was a failure.”
I disagree.
If the goal was to stay together until death do you part, it is definitely a failure.
If the goal was to grow, then possibly not a failure but even in this case you may have failure because plenty of people get divorced and don’t grow at all.
I’d feel better about the astrology. Honestly–the dude would hurt my feelings, because I’m sensitive.
1 year into my relationship a friend (very blunt Gemini with Moon in Cancer) said: ‘You guys are cute together but you’re never going to last.’ I was super upset and asked her why she would say that.
‘Because you’re annoying him.’
LOL. Guess what? She was right…but when I reminded her of what she’d said she was horrified and almost cried she felt so bad about it. I shoulda kept that one in the vault. Don’t make a Cancer Moon cry–you’ll be sorry!
I think I’m the only person in the world who doesn’t especially trust what astrology says about relationships, LOL! I’ve had charts that had all sorts of “good signs” for a relationship, and…phew, didn’t work out, sometimes in truly awful ways. Other times, a chart looked meh, and the person is still in my life. We’re not dating, but we’re still friends.
What I don’t really like about it is that there’s never a perfect astro chart. Ever. So, did you break up because of those few bad aspects? Or, was it just because you’re human and have problems, or he’s a cheater?
Anyway, I just don’t believe in astrology for relationships anymore, and I don’t look at those charts at all when I’m dating, for the most part. I just let us both be human. You can’t predict what someone else will do with their heart, and I think we should stop trying to control it.
I think it could save a lot of heartbreak if it was very early in the relationship… stop it before it starts so to speak.
Having Neptune in the 7th house, I’d appreciate somebody else telling me if the man I’m about to marry is going to turn out to be an axe murderer or not cos I have no clue myself 
This is great. Think of all the time saved.
But humans will never learn to take advice,you follow your heart your conviction ect….and you are willing to take the risk because you think arguing and suffering in a relationship eventually pays of…until your about 90 ,and get that following ur heart is a disservice to your self.
Great idea -but useless-people don’t learn from other’s mistakes
“Great idea -but useless-people don’t learn from other’s mistakes”
I routinely learn from other people’s mistakes.
LOL @satori
I also learn from other people all the time–and here’s a tip: pay attention to the Capricorns!!!! They have shown me time and time again that 1 plus 1 is 2. Of course I am generalizing, but they are the best examples of payoff and solid decisions.
Lots of love to the Cappys xo!!
i would like to know what he bases his judgement off of and how to duplicate the positive ones…
I think it’s nifty. There’s still the five to ten percent chance he’s wrong. Would the knowledge of making it or not influence what really happens?
I was reading a review of another book he did based on these studies… Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work. Obvs. I didn’t read either book but the reviewer did not like this second one… parts of the review made me lol:
“The first problem is what John claims as seven principles comes down to hundreds and hundreds of things to do with someone you already have a problem with. If you can’t get your husband to stop throwing his underwear on the floor, what chance do you have getting him through Gottman’s first principle, which involves doing multiple exercises containing 116 items.”
and their conclusion:
“And that is really the problem with this book. John Gottman’s argument comes down to a defective syllogism:
—All zebras have stripes.
—If you had stripes, you would be a zebra.
—I’ve got a bucket of paint.”
I’m ROLLING he-ah!
But I think you are an exeption Elsa..a very wise one..
I don’t follow advice that well, and it has hit me in the head over and over.
Most people I know don’t either…I am sure there are many who do, but I think the majority don’t or we would be much more advanced in all aspects. But I don’t really know. I have never been in a romantic relationship..I have just observed family and friends repeating the same mistakes over generations…
It’s humility then, iathina85. I can’t imagine I know more about a road I’ve not been on than someone whose traveled the thing.
If they tell me there is a HOLE -> there, I will avoid the thing if at all possible.
I have read John Gottman’s work over the years and I think he has led some very fascinating studies. Recently, I read an article disclaiming his math/stats and I have to say his numbers might be a tad inflated regarding his success rate. That said, he still have offered plenty of food for thought and given me some good insights.
I can absolutely certainly tell you my parents would be in the other 10%.
I’d bookmarked some of gottman’s stuff on amazon but never bought it.
I dunno, I think 90% might be overstating his abilities. I also dislike something about the way that’s phrased like he knows the secret to the universe and he may or may not tell us (yah, i get it, that’s supposed to be the hook). There are probably other books that set a more helpful, open-minded tone.
Guess so:)
that is always creating problems for me my “arrogance/ pride” makes it impossible to even ask someone for directions(littraly), I rather use hours figuring out it my self. I have actually fought my frieds over that.
but I like your ex , and it is def the smartest thing to do:):)
I´m gemini, of course i´d find it fascinating if someone observed me and my guy over lunch and let me know the results. It´s science – i don´t need to take it personal, do i?
But then, i´m all out of that “one-time, all-encompassing, everlasting true love” pattern by now and just in for the experience, however long it may last. In fact, i´ve come to cherish my past love life, painful as it sometimes was, but i wouldn´t have one of the participants back, neither do i wish any of them would have lasted a lifetime. As i said- i´m gemini with sun in 7 . I can´t even understand anymore why others strive so hard for “the one partnership”. When i did, it was very much a cinderella – compensation-complex, due to Neptune and pisces moon. The little mermaid… who, as we all know, paid direly for her aspirations. DId i? Yes and no…
As for the astrology: i don´t use it for partnership predictions anymore, unless for my own entertainment. I´ve found so many aspects, so many factors that play out so differently in real life compared to “what the books say” and what i myself might guess from experience, so i turned humble. What i love to use it for is – consciousness. Introducing one individual in his or her own right to the other, and, by means of the composite, introducing both to the character that is their relationship. To me it´s like a map, the themes are laid out, but how to handle them is a different story. Plus, depending on my mood, i can read the map all wallowing in optimism or drowned in the opposite… i mean, take a stellium of sun, venus and pluto in the 6th house, for instance – looks good, but in six? Meeh… so you either have to include work and health issues into the partnership and take them on, with all consequences, or you´ll suffer, feel dissatisfied and try to get out as fast as you can. Or take saturn in twelve – how can i trust a relationship with saturn in 12? Well, i could wreck my nerves on that… or choose to trust anyway unless proven otherwise. My choice, my consequences. It´s just a map. So i came to use the charts to just take a look at the energies, but not judge by them unless they´re actually showing up in real life.
I like partnership research, comments and theories, though, like, for the mind – if it works, fine, but then again, in the end it´s just science.
perfectly said Kundrie-
here is another gem with sun in the 7th
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I read about this guy on WebMD. It’s cool, but I’d be leery.
Personally, I’m happy where I am right now relationship-wise. And if it’s not going to work, I don’t want to grieve early – I’ve already invested nearly six years, learning I’m doomed now would be depressing.
So, um. Nah, I’ll pass….