Pluto In Capricorn: Suicidal Baby Boomers
The second Saturn return
Lately I’ve worked with a several people who wish to die. These are baby-boomer era people, heading into their second Saturn return and scanning the horizon, they just don’t like what they see up ahead.
They are facing their age. Many of them are alone, the conditions of their life are difficult and not what they’d imagined in their younger years. They are divorced, families are broken, they do not feel valued and most importantly, they do no feel things will improve over the next ten or twenty years and they simply want to call it quits.
I feel this is a private matter but am posting it because I once saw the effect on a friend when at 29 years old, his father made a suicide attempt. He was into his own life at the time. He talked to his father once a year, if that, primarily because parents were divorced and he’d been raised by his mother to hate the man. It was quite phenomenal, the feelings that surfaced at that time. They took all the air out of the room and the man traveled out of state to spend time with his father, ultimately moving to his city and establishing a relationship with him. It’s that blood thing, see?
This is too complex to draw a broad conclusion though I will say I think it is more romantic to face the conditions of your life that you’ve created rather than try to escape them. Mostly I just want to put this out here so people can talk about it, if they like.
78 Responses to “Pluto In Capricorn: Suicidal Baby Boomers”
I’m not suicidal and wouldn’t be unless I got diagnosed with a degenerative disease (I do not want to go through what my relatives did), but I can understand the logic of not wanting to go through the hell that you can see coming. Especially if you are older and nobody is around and nobody cares if you live or die and you can’t come up with a way to improve your circumstances.
Since I have just been through my second Saturn return, I’ll say it’s far more intense than most astrologer would have you believe. I also would never attempt suicide but during Saturn returns have come to understand why others do. The void stretches in front of you and meaning fades to nothing. I notice now that Saturn has moved into Libra, finally some joy and interest is returning and it has nothing to do with external circumstances. (The feelings of emptiness lasted longer than 2.5 years though). I can’t tell you how I dead my third Saturn return and can discover no way to plan for it. Nothing helped during the first two, all love and joy died. But lucky for me, my stubbornness keeps me going. You never know what’s going on in the depths of another human being and those judgements are so cruel.
“It is more romantic to face the conditions of your life that you’ve created rather than try to escape them.” So well put and so true. I don’t think anything can be added that is more poignant.
Thank you for putting this out there, Elsa. As we are seeing in many conversations around here, bringing air to touchy topics only helps in the long run. <3
Been there myself, in the years leading up to my first Saturn return. So, I understand the feelings of bleakness, and lack of any hope. But, I learned then that there is something we need to work through, something we need to learn, and since I don’t believe that this is the only life we get to live, I figured out that I need to embrace the lesson this time around, because if I don’t, it will be that much harder next time around. You don’t get to sidestep your lessons.
That said, my second Saturn return looms in a few years, and I’m not looking forward to it.
people usually don’t attempt suicide unless they’re feeling very disconnected, so completely underestimate how strong the impact is on family and friends when an attempt is made or when a suicide is completed.
There was a time I seriously considered it, about five years ago now. Ultimately, though – I knew what it would do to the people who loved me, and especially to my children.
It’s an out, yes, but a horrible thing to live with as a survivor.
Sigh. Yeah. That’s interesting. I’ve been thinking about that alot. I’ve been thinking lately I’m either already dead, or actively trying to die. I can tell you exactly how I’m feeling: I don’t want to do anything I can think of to do. It’s not even a question of options, all of them are useless, all of them involve intense pain, all of them terrify me. There is not a single thing in front of me that isn’t something I am sure will suck.
I live in so much dread of the future and the next decision I have to make that I am literally *not allowing time to go forward*. I have stopped time. I am literally laying down and refusing to function. And the problem is that there is no reward whatsoever for getting up.
thank you, elsa.
dixie that’s such a good point. when I attempted suicide I couldn’t see anything but my own pain. I was 16 so it was a long time ago. But I have lost 2 friends to suicide and shudder at the pain I would’ve caused the people who love me had I been successful.
Thank you Elsa… My husband is going through his, and it’s been tough for him. I wish I could explain the Astrology to him, because I think it would be helpful for him to understand, he’s not ‘going crazy’ and that this a normal (albeit tough) time, and that it will pass. I think I’m going to go hide all the sharp objects now…
((((carrie and her hubs)))
I’m someone who has always had something of a deathwish. no matter how good things are, and no matter how much I know I would never do it, it’s never that far away.
I feel joy. I feel love. I feel connection. but sometimes I don’t, and a deathwish is part of WHO I AM. I accept that about me. some people will tell you that there are certain things that it is not okay to be. that is JUST NOT TRUE. I’m learning to live with/love who I am, all of me, not just the parts of me the majority finds acceptable.
learning to live with and accept occasional depression/deathwish as part of who I am is what allows me to have the balls to live my life and “keep passing the open windows.”
I no longer seek to end it, as I had in my teens. But I don’t fear Death one bit. I’ve exceeded my own life expectations by 10 years, so this is all a bonus to me. I can do my best to make it work, and if it doesn’t I can say I tried.
Until you’ve been in that dark place where wanting to die exceeds wanting to live, (in my opinion) it’s not possible to understand. Consider yourself blessed if you never do (understand). I don’t mean to sound cold or negative but I’ve dealt with this issue for most of my life, and I’m only 33, so I guess it’s a sensitive subject…..
Thanks for talking about this Elsa. I think that bringing the topic outside the realm of “a private matter” IS a way to heal, however. In the rare occurrence that I do talk about my experiences with suicide, people either get really quiet and start treating me really delicate, like I’m a bomb about to go off, or they go off about how they don’t understand how anyone could ever do something so “ridiculous” and preach that there’s ALWAYS an alternative…..
The point, like with most “sensitive” subjects, is that dialog and education are solid steps on the way to empathy, (or rather sympathy) and purging it out from under our societal taboo is a good start (again, in my opinion).
@Satori: Thanks for the inspiration;-) Sometimes, just a couple insightful sentences are all it takes to change someones’ day.
What a difficult topic. I’ve found comfort in having a Final Exit edition at my finger tips just in case. Not quite for the book’s original intention. When “I want to die” is all I can think & feel, I know that it is a part of me that needs to be let gone of, not all of me. But first it needs to, demands to be addressed and that feels unbearable.
Facing up requires so much courage is all I can say, I don’t quite understand what you mean by it being “romantic”.
I clicked “leave a comment” to find 8 new posts… took me over an hour to write and heavily edit my comment. I resonate with Sam’s and Satori’s words. I’m very much appreciating this being talked about free of absolute judgements.
Thanks to everyone who responded to this post. It really helps me when you put your thoughts and experiences into words and share them here. Each of you spoke to or expressed feelings I’ve had myself. As the energy builds toward my second Saturn return, I feel extremely intense, even when everything on the outside appears okay or I’m even thriving. This part of the journey is unwieldy. To those of you who have been there and survived, thanks for your encouragement and no frills clarity. My heart goes out to those who struggle with suicide.
wow satori put it so well– as I feel similarly–
This bar is TOO MUCH. I mean: it’s so good.
“learning to live with and accept occasional depression/deathwish as part of who I am is what allows me to have the balls to live my life…”
Thank you, Satori.
I listened to Depardieu, the actor, last night (on TV) say that he didn’t have a talent for voicing what he thinks-perceives, and so appreciates screenwriters all the more. Thanks for putting into words, for whomever keeps choosing to keep going.
Poppy
I’m not in the baby boomer generation, but I’m there so often. Only thing that keeps me going is knowing things can change – astrology is a great reminder of this, planets are always in movement to make new transits, every year has a new solar return. I’ve just had nothing but bad crap happen one after another since 2008, it’s exhausting not really having any happiness every day.
@ruth – thanks for posting your comment, it is comforting to hear you went through that in the years leading up to your first Saturn Return, because that’s where I’ve been at! Ever since Saturn entered both house and sign where my Saturn Return will take place, things have been miserable…hmmm…
((((((eva))))))
I should have said something to eva. I bet your situation changes in about a week. We have 5 planets Rx. Mercury and Pluto are turning direct within a day of each other and in tight (easy) aspect. This is going help people in your circumstance, tremendously. Suspend if you can because 10 days from now, where you are at this moment will be a memory.
Astrology always deals with difficult topics, and this is one of them, but perhaps not in the way some people may think.
The thing about a second Saturn Return is that it is always accompanied by the fifth Jupiter Return, and both are preceded by the return of one’s progressed Moon to its natal position, which happens just before a Saturn Return.
All of these astrological “returns” are positive for the most part, but require that the individuals, frankly, grow up.
By the time of the second Saturn Return between the ages of 58-60, a time has come when all of the things learned, and experienced in life to that point should be balanced, and hued into a healthy mix.
Saturn, should a person not have resolved any remaining internal issues will force these into the external world.
Jupiter’s return at the same time is cause for expansion in the mindset of feeling comfortable with oneself by the age of 60, which is half the maximum total lifespan of human beings at 120 years.
As for Baby Boomers who contemplate suicide at this time, all I can say is that it is a big mistake to think that one cannot have a future based solely on reaching 60+.
Most of the first wave Boomers are heading into their 70s (those born in the 1940s) and the those who were born in the early 50s are now entering their 60s.
Usually, one’s 60s is a time to come to terms with oneself, and to express what has been learned in life through acts of love, sharing, and wisdom.
Sadly, most of the generation of Baby Boomers have worshiped their youth for so long they forgot that we all age.
How individual Boomers face this will be a testament towards how they will live the rest of lives – either in balanced spiritual ease, or, with fear and angst, which, when taken to extremes, can lead to suicide.
Astrologically, and therapeutically, I advise patience. Rather than seeing age as something to fret about, or to consider the horrid path of taking one’s own life – rather, remember that aging can be joyful if one views it that way.
Just came in from scraping the house, to find a lot of comments. Thank you Sea, for sending the ((())) to eva, because reading through, that’s what I first noticed–she needed to be acknowledged. So (((eva)))
Part of my less than optimal tarot reading last week had the reader (not here) telling me that Saturn is her favorite planet, and that I need to embrace it more. Easy for her to say. I can embrace the lessons, but the pain necessary to impart those lessons…? Most days, I just want a laser beam that I can focus on Saturn and blow him out of the sky. Has anyone out there had the experience of making peace with Saturn to the point where lessons stop being so damn hard?
@eccentricvirgo–all I can say is find something, one thing, that you can do to create a little bit of happiness each day. Mine, in this time of travail, has been walking the dogs up on the mountain every day. Of course, with mercury retrograde, the car has been in the shop for the last week, and now needs another day, which means another day without the mountain. AAARRRRGGGHHHH!
@satori–thank you for that reminder that I can’t just amputate that part of me that is prone towards depression, it too needs to be embraced, and integrated. I guess I should be saying that to Saturn……
. Awwww….thanks! Good to know! I should have said that I am *not* in my Saturn return yet — I’m 45 and he’s conjunct Merc right now who is sesquiquadrate to natal. Natal Sun Saturn conjunction is coming up next. And a packed eighth house so what you’re saying has got to be true. Aint dead yet. This has got to be the practice period, where Saturn gives you no choice but to follow the stupid trajectory you committed to. Gotta get up, those bad decisions aren’t just going to make themselves…
I remember an old blog of yours, or maybe it was a video, where you said that at the second saturn return, people see the reality of their lives and the choice really is to change or die. And then you said some people are so scared of changing, it scares them to death.
It made me think of my uncle. He started drinking himself to death when he was nineteen but he got real serious about that decision when he turned fifty nine and a half.
. Just relating to it all with Saturn on my left shoulder the past couple days…
I feel so privileged to be a part of this community. The discussion and sharing that takes place is profound. It has made a tremendous difference in my life, at a time when I really, really needed it.
Thanks, Elsa, and thanks to everyone here.
am just realizing that what Eva says sounds perfectly normal to me. A normal that’s not normal for a majority. Maybe its an 8th house thing too.
My heart breaks for anyone whose despair is so deep as to consider ending everything. It really does. There is no greater sadness to me than one that exists completely within; I think that sentiment comes from my Capricorn moon, I’m not sure, but I do understand. Interestingly, several of my great inspirations in life are creative people/artists who attempted suicide and then went on to create great works; Joseph Conrad (a Cancerian) is one.
As for the Saturn Return, I’ve had one and for whatever reason, it was not nearly as devastating to me as the two Saturn oppositions that I (barely) lived through, including the one that just passed. No idea why. Just glad to be past them.
Ruth asked, “Has anyone out there had the experience of making peace with Saturn to the point where lessons stop being so damn hard?”
The answer is yes. An advanced astrological method I use with clients with regard to this planet shows that thoughts play the key role.
You see, basically, when under Saturn’s influences, the thoughts of a person tend to look on the dark side of things, producing too much energy consisting of Safety Thoughts.
Everything seems under threat to one personally, from without, and within. Saturn can be a huge bummer because of this because it is the giant moose in the room under aspect, transit, or progression and return.
The inclinations of Saturn on a person’s stellar form, on their own thought-cells, can be heavy, with a lack of buoyancy, or flexibility. Rigid, with a pessimistic view – the emotions are thus weighted down, heavy, seemingly unable to navigate well in the world.
The thoughts can become morose, dark, very self-centered and egotistical, and therefore tend to attract into a person’s life losses, heavy responsibilities, and want.
People under this inclination want to be left alone to work it all out, but fall directly into Saturn’s trap without knowing it.
Saturn’s influence, by transit, or progression can be draining, and so the personality will suffer. It is not a smart thing to go into any area of life where Saturn is present by placement or strong aspect unless one is tough, ready, and fully prepared.
If not, then it is wiser to look into other areas of life until the Saturnian influences have passed. This can be easily done.
Under Saturn’s influences, the best thing to do is to encourage thoughts that are Social, to keep your chin up and add happy thoughts to the mix as much as possible. Work on this daily, or, remain in your dark room. You always have a choice.
I’m not saying to ignore what Saturn’s inclinations are, but, rather, to turn the heavy thought-cells, into Social, buoyant, and positive ones. Don’t be ugly, but Be Bubbly.
You see, Saturn will encourage worry, fear, negativity and heaviness if you do not cultivate thoughts of courage, stamina, and being positively Social.
Saturn is now in the social Sign of Libra, so, for those having this second Saturn Return, and who may also have Neptune in Libra, the best thing to do is to encourage thoughts of Art, Form, Beauty, Laughing, and Love.
I once sent a person who had problems with Saturn in Libra to the museum more often, and encouraged her join a group that discussed art through sculpture, which she knew nothing about. She would not go.
So, being the very stubborn Capricorn astrologer I am – I took her. I just got her into the habit of going out, dressing better, and leaving her problems behind.
She got into the habit doing this herself after I took on Saturn’s role and scared the shit out of her. That worked like a charm. She wanted a husband, and I gave her a man’s view on her personality at the time.
Anyhow, within a year of doing this, she had transformed from a meek, timid, negative-thought woman, into a balanced, and mature lady not afraid of making new friends.
She was the cure. That ended Saturn’s heavy lean on her. She also attracted many more positive men simply by changing her thoughts, and seeing what it was that she really wanted.
Saturn usually tries to kill the Social feeling because this is the very function that cures Saturn’s influences. You’re not going to meet the love of your life being grumpy, downcast, and negative.
For instance, when under Saturn’s influences, be it by transit, secondary progression, or Return, be HAPPY.
Rather than stay in, fret, and look in the mirror and worry about the future – do the exact opposite.
It requires strength, that when you think everything is going to pieces, jobs, financial & relationship problems, divorces, family separations, etc., to just forge on.
So, go out, make friends, mix around with people who like to sing, dance, go to films, theater, and spend time with people who really enjoy art, music, etc.
Allow your magnetic resonance to attract, rather than to repel.
When people smile and say “hi!” and “good morning,” do the same, and with a smile – not a Saturnian-induced groan.
Every single time you react to something with a grumpy Scrooge-like “bah humbug,” you let Saturn right back into the room in a big way.
So, add happy thought elements to your thought-compound.
Be like a excellent cook.
Mix in only that which tastes really good, and what you will have is a dynamic stellar compound that attracts more good and happy people into your circle by the mere fact that you are being CHEERFUL – on purpose, to accomplish just the happiness you know you need.
More is always better than less with Saturn. That is the astrological cure for Mr. Malefic, now exalted in Libra by transit.
The power of constant smiles and genuine friendliness with a bit of your own mystery is contagious: plus, you get more good dates that way. But never – ever – with Saturn’s dark frown.
Sam: what you said. (((Sam)))
grrr: what you said. (((grrr)))
We have had so many suicides in my extended family, so many. My mother is at high risk for suicide. Her father killed himself, my mother as an Adult Child of Alcoholic Parent, and she drinks heavily herself. We live in the same house. The stress of monitoring someone in that state of mind is beyond belief. She is 76 and should live to be 100 unless she does herself in. It’s nothing new and no big secret. She’s talked about killing herself as long as I can remember.
Suicide is extraordinarily complex and each situation has utterly unique elements.
Jupiter and Saturn are conj in my Capricorn 9th House. I’m already feeling the Jupiter/Pluto thing and my Jupiter is at 10o. By the time I have my second Saturn return in about 10 years, Pluto will have finished raping my natal Saturn. That’s a weird mental picture, isn’t it?
I’m not expecting to have major problems during my second Saturn return, not like I had during my first return. Pluto should have cleaned out everything by then and Saturn should simply come by for an inspection.
Elsa, I can’t agree that the choices are between suicide or romance. I believe your thoughts were about second Saturn returns more than suicide. But suicide is an extremely touchy and sensitive subject. Your comment seemed flippant but that’s just me.
Elsa,
Your clients might like a book called “The Last Gift of Time” by Carolyn G. Heilbrun. wonderful and comforting.
There seem to be 2 separate discussions at the same time. One about Saturn returns and another about suicide.
“your comment seemed flippant but that’s just me.” WOW, if THAT’s not flippant I don’t know what is.
“but that’s just me” = “bless her soul”
rose thanks for the suggestion (I’m not nearing my SR but I’m thinking of my parents). Just noticed that it’s available online in google books:
sorry, I’m wrong–thought all of it is available but it isn’t. a lot is, tho.
stormlaughter i’m sorry your family has suffered so much.
I have been reading elsa’s blog for several years now and don’t believe she’d be flippant about suicide or another person’s feelings about suicide.
Uh-mazing. Just amazing.
Ohhhhh….erase.
Yep. Backspace, delete. 
Theo thank you for your words also. I think battling Saturn with brightness and cheer is what they have in mind at Christmas. I could probably use a haircut or something, maybe put on something other than yoga pants. Couldn’t hurt.
Elsa shoots from the hip, but flippant on serious subjects (like Saturnalia) ? Never!
It’s late here, after 2am, and I have to go to the funeral of a friend of 40 years tomorrow which means driving early down to London… so must be brief, and get to bed.
Suicide has been the background music to my life for as long as I remember (as I suspect it is with many who have a handicap, and mine is one which can repulse people).
I’ve been there and done that: the most determined (and final) effort I survived only by chance – I was 27 + a month… Both my Saturn returns started early, and were hellish; both involved crises related to my love for a married man, who also loved me – the first my lover, the second, not (long stories, both! – esp the first). Both were followed after a year or so by periods of peace and some joy; and of moving forward, with new work, friends, lovers and places.
Having ‘committed suicide’ at 27 – I spent several days in hospital after it, two days of which attached to machines – even in my darkest days since, and there have been many, I’ve had the luxury of knowing I *do* have the courage to do it again if I ever feel I don’t have the strength to go on – and I’ve come damn close to that, several times since. That was a great comfort; and I *know* there are things worse than death…
I agree that no-one who hasn’t been there can quite understand how it feels to be in that place, when every painful minute feels like a century, and without end. There is no release from it, it is literally indescribable, and sometimes even when you’ve recovered from it in the past, a new deep depression can seem just as utterly hopeless as you ever remember, and you feel you will never find the strength and the means to pull yourself out of it… And sorry Theo: your words are good and wise, but – but – but the last thing you CAN do in that state (let alone want to do) is to be with other people. At all.
It’s *people* who got you there, right? ;^)
JP Sartre: “Hell is other people” …
But all this does pass: life is cyclical, and I’ve learned now to grit my teeth and find ways to burrow through the tunnel of despair til I come out the other side. Some of that is just *waiting* for the strength, just a ray or flash of light…
I never felt suicidal when I had the dog, btw, even though she accompanied me through some of the darkest days of my life. That twice daily walk I HAD to do for her sake, ensured I survived. I always found *some* pleasure in that, if only hers
((((eva))))
I too picked up on eva’s post above: hang on in there girl, you have friends here; and we too need you, and your unique voice, in our counsels
LOL eva, here we re all hugging you and your post has gone! But we’ll (((hug))) you anyway
Ooops, delete that one! Didn’t go far enough. Time I was in bed… Sleep well all y’all XX
Hi chrispito, Thank you for your response. I hope it’s a good read for your parents.
Hi Blessed Place, I appreciate your honesty, strength and empathy. It’s clearly coming from someone who’s really been there.
I totally understand Eva and while I’m nowhere near my 60s and my second Saturn return is a good 10 yrs out (not really sure), I too wrestle with this. I think some of us middle agers may be suicidal, yet not in the classical “commit suicide” way. I would never do that, it would be far too traumatic to my family.
Once you reach your mid-40s and on, staying alive becomes an act of the will. Chances are there will be health challenges and you have to take better care of yourself because it’s “chicken coming home to roost” time and you can’t get away with sloppy eating/health habits any more.
The flip side of that is that if you decide to not take care of yourself, if you decide to not watch what you eat, not exercise, and actively treat whatever conditions you might have picked up, your health will deteriorate until you end up with heart problems / diabetes / high blood pressure / high cholesterol, etc all of which will cut your life short, especially if you stubbornly refuse to mend your ways.
So it’s not so much that people want to end it all as of today or tomorrow and they’re planning to jump off a bridge. It’s more of an “I don’t want to live to be 80, so I hope I’m gone by 55/60 (or whatever) and I’m not going to take care of myself, because I have no reason to live anyway.”
When my mother was diagnosed with diabetes, being an extreme chocoholic, she would, from time to time, eat chocolates and brownies and things that weren’t good for her. She would laugh and say that “If it kills me, at least I’ll die happy”. I didn’t think it was funny. She’s 79, btw, so if she was really suicidal, she hasn’t been successful.
Most of us have known middle aged people who know they should quit smoking, lose weight, use CPAP because they have sleep apnea, are out of control diabetics, etc. Yet they don’t do what they need to do, and their lives are cut short. Were they suicidal, or merely in denial? Who knows what goes on in someone else’s head?
So middle-agers of good morals do not tend to commit suicide per se. They just let their health deteriorate and refuse to make the changes that could restore them to health.
Theo–thank you. Your words just reaffirmed where I have been heading towards. I learned in another very difficult period in my life that we all have choice–whether or not to focus on the negative, or the positive. As I have told many–if the only thing that is good on a given day is that the sky is a beautiful shade of blue, and my roses are in bloom, then that is what I need to focus on. I’ve been starting to work with affirmations–something I never thought I’d do, but hell, if there is any way that this might help, then I’m going to do it, because at this point, I am willing to do anything within my power to try to shift my life in a more positive direction.
@ruth, I’m obsessed with birds! I need to get back to carrying my field guides everywhere with me when I can’t get outdoors. I’ve also found cooking at home really cheers me up. I just sat looking through a soup cookbook and got excited!
eccentric – all your posts are going in the spam filter. I don’t know why, it’s not personal. I do know that if I keep pulling them out the filter will “learn” and recognize you as not being spam. Sorry about this. The filter is hosted off site and has it’s own mind.
Thanks for the hugs BP and all. It’s good to have people to maunder at when you’ve got a Saturn half return going. Validation rocks
Blessed Place said, “There is no release from it, it is literally indescribable, and sometimes even when you’ve recovered from it in the past, a new deep depression can seem just as utterly hopeless as you ever remember, and you feel you will never find the strength and the means to pull yourself out of it… And sorry Theo: your words are good and wise, but – but – but the last thing you CAN do in that state (let alone want to do) is to be with other people. At all.”
Well, I’ve advised hundreds of clients who felt exactly this way, and the great majority of them who followed my advice did want to be with other people, once they learned Saturn’s cure.
You see BlessedPlace, depression is a symptom of Saturn’s inclination, and can lead to health problems later, especially those that affect memory and can bring on dementia.
The only cure is to “exercise” the mind. This means literally exercising mentally AND emotionally.
Transits spark all stellar bodies, including your own. This is done through your personal transits and progressions. If you know what these particular transits are – then you will have the cure.
It is that simple.
The hard part is the ego. If you decide to allow your free will, conscious or not, to not resolve your inner problems then your transits will externalize them into the physical world.
You see, transits force that which is within to be externalize to push you to face what you’re not facing within your own self.
Rather than intellectualize depression – face it with cheer, and Social thoughts, and, see in your mind what you would like to see happen positively, and then be on the lookout for it in your physical environment.
You will be surprised just how strong your own thoughts really are. If you want to learn Astrology, then this is essential to understand, because then half of any problem is already solved.
I’ve just completed my Second Saturn Return and want to share some perspective. While I agree it is tough, it is also the time of trying new stuff. I started learning about Astrology, returned to reading Tarot, took a writing course, and started wearing dark nail polish for the first time ever. I’ve also probably worked harder at my job and endured more stress than ever, so Saturn definitely asks us to work at it.
Some of the lessons I came here to learn became more obvious, after all, if you’re working on SELF at least some of the time, you gain insights and wisdom. Some problems actually do go away, while others become noticeably more weighty and crystallized, and sure enough, they’re in your chart. I felt a coming to terms with lessons I’m here to learn, stuff that a younger me thought I could run away from. I did not grow as much as I expected; but I did grow. I thought by now I’d be better off financially; but then again, I came here to learn through work. I definitely have my dark side and at times get depressed; but I also always had the thought that something better might come, and this feeling did not disappear. Maybe my Saturn being in the first house helped? Toying with the idea of checking out was much more overpowering when I first struck out on my own at age twenty.
I’d suppose anyone going through their Pluto in Capricorn Saturn return would also have gone through some Uranus transits, and I have wrestled between trying to be wise about change, and the wish to leap at it; the Fool card appearing many a time in readings.
When pain becomes overwhelming, we want out; yet to end it all because it’s hard and have to go through the same stuff again? NO THANKS. It is far better to navigate your second Saturn return with conscious awareness and do whatever possible to set yourself up for the next cycle.
As someone relatively new here, thank you Elsa and all of you for the openness and courage you put forth on the blogs.
So much appreciation for EVERYONE’S comments and willingness to share their experiences….sometimes just knowing you’re not alone in how you feel is all it takes to push you out of the darkness;-)
Ain’t that true!
Elsa, I think you struck a nerve here.
Does anyone else feel as if the powers that be are some how suggesting baby boomers, the age of their second saturn return, are redundant? Obsolete? I was reading about the 99ers – people who have been unemployed for 99 weeks, their unemployment benefits about to be cut off — and there are all sorts of programs to reeducate these people, but they feel like, for what? For a career that doesn’t exist? For a time in my life when I should be retiring?
Perhaps it is harsh to say this, but I feel the boomers are facing this fear versus creation vibration even more powerfully than those going through their first saturn return (I am currently beginning saturn return, which conjuncts my natal sun. yay). And again, harsh, but wondering if the boomer generation, who had such a hand in shaping the current world or allowing it to be shaped by acting complacently in the face of forces not to their liking, are forced to pay the price? They are forced to be judged by the values they had a hand in establishing in the world, the culture we now find ourselves in.
The culture created by boomers values work to the detriment of personal life and relationships, youthful appearance to the point of absurdity, extravagant spending, me me me culture. The current saturn in libra generation (whether it’s your first or second return) is coming up, face to face with the necessity to change this paradigm. To change our responsibilities and focus toward understanding and relating to each other, being fair in all our dealings, both with ourselves and others, to move from a self-focused atomized world to one where we live in community and actually know our neighbors again — this is the challenge the saturn in libra folks are essential in bringing about.
Hoping off the planet isn’t going to do you or your descendants or the world any favors. We need everyone’s medicine; we need everyone to be aware of their value and their ability to contribute to the collective. It would seem a great shame to me, as part of the younger generation helping to usher in this change, to loose the elders who are on the other side, farther down the road, who I know have much to share. We need your perspective, we need your courage, and we need your wisdom.
Don’t be selfish. That’s not the way any more.
I don’t understand what she meant by “romantic” either.
Elsa has started deleting my posts so it’s time to move back into lurk mode.
I’ve been reading many astrologer’s websites, their blogs, participating in some of their forums, because I’m considering hiring one.
These sorts of topics are very good for determining who to hire. I appreciate Elsa’s candor.
I have been suicidal before but never really attempted suicide. I accidentally placed myself in a potentially fatal situation and considered staying there since the opportunity to get offed presented itself. For example, if someone were to trip on the tracks and a train was coming. At the last moment (mere seconds), the voice in my heart/head asserted, “I don’t want to die!” So now, even if everything feels horrible and maybe depressing, I don’t want to die. There are still things I want to do in this lifetime.
((( Everyone who feels or have felt loss of will)))
Also, to anyone who feels this way:
it will pass!!!!! just hang on!!!
Parin, I did not delete your posts. I went to sleep at night. And I don’t care what you think of me. I didn’t solicit your opinion but if you’re going to offer it, then you should not be surprised there is a response.
Now get on topic and off my ass or I WILL delete your posts because people are coming here to read about suicide and baby-boomers, not Parin’s opinion of Elsa.
I can only speak for myself. Being almost 49 now and having been alone all my life, the prospect of another 20 or 30 years of unconsolable loneliness is just too much to bear.
I watched my grandmother live by herself until her 90s. Just basically trapped inside her house with only few weekly interactions with anyone. My father, now in his 80s, spends most of the time alone, save for doctors visits, maybe visiting his brother once a week, and seeing me on Saturday mornings.
I would like to say that I don’t want my life to end up this way, but it already has. My youngest son is 24, and I’m lucky if I see him every other month. The eldest is 27, and I see him maybe once every 4-6 weeks. The middle twin sons I do see about once a week. I can only imagine that it will get worse after they marry and establish families.
Please don’ tell me to get friends. I have a Gemini Ascendant. I have tons of friends. I’m tired of flitting from activity to activity because I don’t want to go home and be alone. And the prospect of my finding someone to share my life with is such a long shot that it’s not even worth considering.
I just discovered I have diabetes. My doctor doesn’t know and I know enough about medicine to hide this until it blows up and can’t be hidden anymore. For $20 anyone can buy a glucometer at Walgreens and self-diagnose. I also have only one kidney. Diabetes can really wreck kidneys. And there are a few other medical conditions that are completely manageable, but I can choose to ignore and allow to worsen.
The way I see it, I should be free to check out. It’s my life, it’s my body, and if I don’t want to stay on this plane, it’s my prerogative to find an exit in the least disturbing way for others to handle. It may take me 5-10 years, hopefully less, but it will save me 10-20 years of being by myself.
Hi Trish:
I’ve really been feeling this too. I’m not that worried about being alone, I kind of always have been. And I’ve still got stuff to do for my kids so I’m not quite ready to go yet.
But at some moment in the future I really don’t see why a person shouldn’t be free to just say, okay, I’m done here. it hurts too much and I don’t want to try anything else.
Sometimes though I wonder if people don’t do this anyway, subconsciously. I know when my mother was dying — once she found out she was sick she seemed to have some control over when she would go. And then there are people who just catch pneumonia one day and they’re gone the next. I wonder if there is some kind of control we have over our lifespans that we can’t see.
“I wonder if there is some kind of control we have over our lifespans that we can’t see.”
I have zero doubts about that. For example who has not witness someone ill who waits for that one thing to occur before passing on immediately after? Other examples that come to my mind may be controversial and this already veers away from the topic’s specificity at hand.
@krustallos–first of all, and I do not mean to be antagonistic in any way, as someone who is from the end of the boomer generation, and has been unemployed for a long long time–the reeducation opportunities that are supposedly “being offered” these days, are not what they seem to be on the surface. As someone who has researched the question, there are a lot of loopholes and Catch 22s involved. I don’t want to make this a forum for the problems in our system, but take it from someone who is now looking at having to sell my beloved home in order to be able to go back to school, the government offerings are not a panacea.
Secondly, please don’t forget that along with the downside of my generation, came a lot of “ups”. I remember the first Earth Day. The previous generations thought that the whole idea of environmentalism was crazy. My generation is the one who went down to the South, put their well being, and even their lives on the line to bring about the end of segregation. We marched against the war, and eventually brought down governmental support for it. Prior to my generation, ideas like spirituality, metaphysics, alternative approaches to religion, environmentalism, were kind of viewed as “crackpot”. So please, don’t throw the baby (boomer) out with the bathwater.
Third–as a boomer who for many many years worked with people in their late 20′s–I was the only one in the department who tried to create a win-win situation. People who I supported, helped, lent a hand to over and over, told me that “that was all in the past, this is now” when asked to look beyond their own selfish drives. I lost my job because I cared enough about someone in her 20′s who had turned to drugs and alcohol to fill the void caused by the decision to abort a child, to sit her down and kindly and quietly advise her that she needed to find some sort of help before she mistakenly killed herself. I guess its all from the point of perspective that one looks at it–but to me, the younger generation that I have dealt with, is even more narcissistic and selfish than what is being said of mine.
I’m glad that you are one of the younger generation who might be willing to embrace the wisdom of maturity that my generation has to offer, but I have to tell you, that has simply not been my experience. I do not plan to hop off this plane of reality any time soon, but like other friends, others who have been quietly living lives of kindness, and compassion towards others, many of us feel that the world has passed us by.
@grrr–was composing the last post while yours came up–I totally agree with you. I watched my mother die of a cancer that should have been easily overcome because it was found so early. My thinking is that she just didn’t want to go on anymore–her life with my brilliant,rageaholic father was too painful. I then watched my father get the “perfect” out for him–a cancer whose course was so gradual, so slow that 3 weeks before he died, he took a 9 mile hike, 2 weeks before, a 3 mile walk, a week before, he finished his book, and then he died. He was only 71, in great shape other than the leukemia, but I think he would not have liked growing old. He would not have dealt well with the gradual loss of everything that leads up to a later death. I have to believe that we get the lives we choose, as well as the deaths we choose.
“I have to believe that we get the lives we choose, as well as the deaths we choose.”
new thread here:
Ruth, I really agree with what you are saying. I see much of the good we accomplished taken for granted and mistakes horribly magnified. The intense idealism we felt and lived is now denied, denigrated or cynically twisted into something it never was for us. No one even talks about the ideas we spent years trying to put into practice.
These are some photos that although very surface oriented, show some of the massive changes we have gone through. http://objflicks.com/TakeMeBackToTheSixties.htm
If we, as a generation, have earned bad karma, the only thing I can think of that we should have done better was to have had more empathy for our own elders during those huge changes. Compared to the richness and depth of thought and caring we considered normal, todays world feels very bleak and cold.
“I wonder if there is some kind of control we have over our lifespans that we can’t see.”
LOA and visualization absolutely work, both for “good things” and for “bad” however we choose to define those concepts.
In my case, and returning to the initial purpose of this post, I have Pluto paying a long visit to my natal eighth house Sun in Cap and right now is exactly over my Mars, bringing up repressed anger about my situation.
The thing here is that Pluto’s transits are all about giving things up, ideally to transform into something better. Pluto takes whatever isn’t working in your life and gets rid of it.
For me, having the lord of death and rebirth pay a visit to the ruler of my vitality in the house of death and rebirth gives me an opportunity to either transform, or exit. There probably won’t be a better transit in my lifetime that I can misuse to call it quits, especially when Saturn pays a visit to my Sixth House of health next year.
What is death but the ultimate transformation?
I agree with joecoffee. A former work colleague chose to die from his health issues in exactly the way joecoffee described.He would never have committed suicide outright in order to spare all of us who loved him the devastation. He was a talented writer but chose to call it quits. Hi Trish, Your post could have been written by myself, apart of course from the personal details of your family. I too, will soon be 49. My son is still young and I want to see him partnered and settled.
Once this happens I will certainly not be taking any steps to prolong my life expectancy. I am definitely not in the market for a further 20 or even 30 years of loneliness.
My first Saturn return began with a recognition (and getting help for) anxiety that I had lived w/ for some time (in a very unhealthy manner) and then finished off with the whopper of a stressful pregnancy/delivery and undiagnosed (until it was a year later and hardcore clinical) PPD. Capital D that. Not wanting to be around anymore was interwoven though much of that time and this was supposed to be “the happiest time” of my life.
Although I have moved past that part of my life and the lessons it imparted (and they were OUCH lessons)I still have my dark times. I have thought more than once about the end – though mostly conceptually.
What Satori said about accepting who you are & using it to move through the darkness is very wise.
I feel for the boomers who are struggling right now. There has been so much good from your generation Ruth — and your story is a hard one to read as it seems you did much good and deserve much more karmically. There are those of us who do value your experience and insight.
Consciously or not, I feel that we do choose it all. I developed some conditions several years ago and with one of them, when it flares up, I just want to die: the physical pain gets unbearable. I’ve managed to gain some degree of control over it through various techniques; ironically it is about allowing and embracing it, breathing… Choosing to breathe deeply. Last Sunday it flared up again in a way it had not for month and it was so scary. A sentence came up clear which was “Do you want to choose life here or do you want to go?” instead of the usual “I want to die”.
I’d venture to state that one’s degree of choosing life is measurable in everyone by noticing how shallow or full their breath is, or by how conscious it is. It is supposed to be automatic, like one’s heart beat, or digestion. I beg to differ that breath is not separate from our psyche.
It’s clear that my long history with death wishes has some contributing role in this physical condition. Medically it stands on its own. But other people I know who share this also share a difficult history. Not that I want to blame one’s past onto one’s current conditions but if no conscious attempts are made to process then yes we’re screwed. That to me is where the Saturn return demands come in.
Thank you Shel!
Consciously or not, I feel that we do choose it all.
I have to believe that. Not for looking at others and “blaming the victim”, but instead for looking at me. If I believe that on some level or other, I chose to live this life that has, until now, been very lonely, painful, difficult, then that means that I can “un-choose”, or “re-choose”, or at the very least, choose differently next time around. I want to have that power, and not just have to look at my life as it having all been just a crapshoot, and I came up with the unlucky dice this time.
grrr–good luck. I have to agree, that in my days of debilitating menstrual cramps, (yay menopause!)awareness of the breath was what helped. Something tells me that the answer to the question lay in the fact that now it is a question, not a statement. Yes, it is all about conscious processing.
@Trish I do not believe that letting health issues go untreated is as simple as it sounds. Yes, you may damage your kidney by letting your diabetes (if you indeed have this) get out of control. Eventually.
But before it gets that far, there will be day after day, week after week, and month after month of unpleasant symptoms such as headaches, nausea, fatigue, inability to focus, irritability, numbness in your feet, vision changes, among others you may not have considered.
Rare is the person with the strength and determination to willingly be in pain or uncomfortable for long periods of time. Eventually, you may scream “uncle”.
Moreover, our bodies are not machines, like car engines than can be run to the ground if we don’t change the oil. They are self-adjusting organisms bent on independently maintaining homeostasis at all costs and despite your best self-sabotaging efforts. So ask yourself if you really want to be miserable every day for however many months and years this may take. If you think being alone is bad, try being alone… and blind.
Consider that if you take care of the diabetes, you may feel better, and think differently.
I’m curious. Have you always felt this way, or is this something new? If so, how new?
I can’t comment on the astrology part, or whether one can make one’s self sick through deliberate visualization. Why not visualize yourself with someone? Takes the same effort!
@joe I believe what you are saying is that it’s not a straight line to ESRD. Point taken.
Not sure how long I’ve felt this way, I have been lonely for a long time, but it really hit me this past weekend.
As for your last question, my answer is this: If in 5 years my end-game intentions have not materialized, I won’t be in any more pain than I am right now. But if I do the same to visualize someone, and 5 years from now it still has not manifested, I’ll be in a lot more pain when 5 additional years of hope are dashed.
Apparently, I don’t truly believe it can happen, so it would not work any how.
I just looked back at my comment, and I’m sorry if it came off as too flip. You see, when I was going through my OCD hell a few years back, I thought about suicide. Missing my kids made me stop. Also there, in the back of my mind, was the feeling of all that I would miss out on if I went through with it.
The difference between me before I was diagnosed and me just six weeks later, when the meds took hold, was nothing short of a miracle.
I feel for anyone who feels like there’s nothing left. Maybe I am a foolish optimist, but it’s clear as bells in my chart. I’m lucky in that my family was always close, and I always have someone around, even if I want to be by myself for a while. I don’t know what it’s like to be alone, cut off, and drifting. I don’t know what else to say except I hope you all can find peace.
For some of us, it might be the only actual choice we make in a life that stopped to be ours a long ago…
I believe that people should have the right to choose what to do with their own lives at least, if they want to end it for whatever reason, so be it.
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Maybe I’m an overly optimistic fool, but even in dark times, I didn’t consider anything like that…I always felt life is worth enjoying, no matter what. You only get one shot at life, so make the best of it. Find happiness wherever you can, even if it’s simple things.
I’m not trivializing anyone who’s been in this spot. I simply don’t comprehend the mindset.