Pluto Transit to the Moon – Mine: The Shadow Side of Women

moon phasesI was talking to my pal a couple weeks ago. The one that considers the age of someone’s soul. This was before I posted that blog:

“I wrote about you,” I said. “But I didn’t name you. And I don’t know how you feel about that. Sometimes I wonder about this. I haven’t posted the thing yet.”

She told me I could identify her if I wanted.

“Well, I think it depends. If you said something funny, I would credit you. But in this bit I was talking about your beliefs. And completely out of context. I state what you believe without supporting it at all. Or elaborating.

She told me again, I could write whatever I wanted. “If it’s part of me, if I said it, then it’s okay.”

“Well, I don’t know. It would be like you telling a group of people, Elsa is an astrologer and that’s all. Nothing to back that up. Elsa believes in astrology! And that’s all they know. So half of them are going to think I’m a flake. I will be identified by this small piece and nothing else.”

“Yep.”

“And then I walk in the room and everyone has already made a judgment about me,” I said. “Based on virtually nothing.”

“That’s true.”

“And I notice I name the men on my blog, but rarely the women. Of my friends I mean. And I think this is because the women get attacked, where they leave the men alone. The women get hunted.”

“That’s true too.”

“Right. So I am not going to attach some piece of information to you… some belief you have that people will jump on and use to hurt you. Because women get hunted on my blog. There are all kinds of women who hunt other women on my blog and I don’t know why that is. They let the men have some authority but a woman? Forget about it.”

“That’s exactly what happens. It’s pretty sickening.”

“I know. And they hunt me too. On my own blog! As if this is going to do anything,” I laughed. “As if I won’t notice. What do you think the chances of that are? That someone could hunt me on my own blog but I wouldn’t know it?”

She laughed.

“Anyway, this is why I don’t attach your identity. In case you wonder. If there is any way you could be attacked or discredited, that’s exactly what they’ll do so I want to protect you. But this means I can’t credit you properly and I feel bad about it. And I don’t know why the men get to just be. But I know there is something wrong with this. I can pretty much never name a woman friend unless she’s acting totally like a man. And you have to admit it’s a messed up culture. But this is how it is. That bitch is one pound skinnier than me! She has nice hair or something I don’t. What a bitch! Let’s kill her! Let’s string her up! Let’s lie in wait and burn that girl down, the first chance we get. Like a pack of wolves or something.”

“Yep, that’s what they do.”

“And the same women leave the men alone, completely. The men get a whole different level of respect.”

[poll=25]

Do you notice this phenomena? Where is the Moon in your chart?


Comments

Pluto Transit to the Moon – Mine: The Shadow Side of Women — 61 Comments

  1. Cancer Moon here…

    I think I’m an equal opportunity hunter, *grin* I’ll crack on anyone I think deserves it, certainly not because someone has prettier hair than me though.
    I think I’m the kind of hunter that looks for the obvious flaws in others, which they’re too blind or self-absorbed to see. Conversely, those who are self-aware elicit my compassion and fierce protection.

  2. One thing missing from the votes may be: I can’t stand women who hunt women.
    I’m sure I’m guilty of leaving a man alone, with his ‘authority’, but I try to steer clear of the pack when they’re hunting, this female competitiveness has always p’d me o, and gets me down.

  3. Virgo Moon here.
    I’m overly critical of myself, so if I see someone that has something better then me I don’t hunt them, I hunt me. I try my best to make myself better than I was before I noticed the other person’s advantage. I don’t generally hunt other people unless they’ve done something to wrong me or mine. If that happens, better watch out!

  4. I didn’t vote because I don’t know. But I have been wondering about this a lot. A lot. I am in a male-dominated environment: academia, and I notice vast differences between men an women here. Women, including myself, are far more apologetic concerning their own work, while men tend to be cocky. Women seem to overcompensate too, whether men can just be. And then, I tend to be critical of women myself, including myself, while men have more authority without ‘doin nothing’. And it’s completely stupid. For example if a woman is very nervous giving a presentation I think: ‘get your act together girl’, but only because I recognise myself in her and I don’t want to. And that’s so unfair it bugs me. (But I must admit this would annoy me in a man too). But I do tend to actively support women friends here, and a woman professor who is great. I read their work and comment constructively and kindly, and we talk about outside work things too. I think we tend to have far more dificulty detaching from our black and white linear brain-centred work and connecting it with a ‘whole’ life, which is beyond causality.

    I agree we should support each other more than we do, we should make a conscious effort – these catfights are stupid beyond relief.

    Moon in aquarius 8th house

  5. I couldn’t pick from your choices, Elsa.

    I’m a woman who doesn’t hunt other women, nor do I hunt men. I don’t really see the point in such a thing, and never have.

  6. I’m always critising your choices :D

    (Virgo Moon)

    Nothing applies to me. Yes, I’ve always noticed this “hunting” thing in women and I hate it and I call them on it when I catch them at it.

    Fact is… I don’t like women very much:

    “That bitch is one pound skinnier than me! She has nice hair or something I don’t. What a bitch! Let’s kill her! Let’s string her up! Let’s lie in wait and burn that girl down, the first chance we get. Like a pack of wolves or something.” ”

    For all that and more. I prefer the company of men, not just romantically or sexually but because they’re not those nasty women. I have far more in common with men than I do women too.

  7. I don’t think I do this BUT I may have a blind spot to it. I am very blind to this AND I have a Moon/Pluto opposition with Venus right in the middle as a t-square. I think if anything, I’ve been blind to women’s competitive nature and dark side and I’m not just becoming aware of it through therapy.

    Very interesting observation here. But I may be an equal opportunity hunter, now that I think about it. I did, after all, ask if Scott was one of those people who dish it out but can’t take it. So I was willing to raise an eyebrow at his behavior. So, I have to be honest, I don’t know.

  8. I have a Virgo moon, 7th house, and I really feel what Allison says above- I try to be better than someone who I feel is competing with me. But I’d rather be friends than competitors- the majority of my friends are women, though I’m trying to even out the ratios.

    And as to leaving men alone? Heck no. Actually, I’m not really the place to come for self-esteem, admiration, and ego-reassurance. Not intentionally, just… well, it’s me. On the other hand, I’m always encouraging my female friends, and even making allowances. I want them to be strong. This is probably because of the women in my family, especially my mother.

    And I can’t stand women who… hunt other women, If I were a man, I believe I’d find them vile. Besides, it’s a waste of time and energy. If you really want a guy? you wouldn’t waste time laying traps for the women around him. Just walk through them, jeez. It’s not like they make the decision, he does.

  9. I would never say that men are not as nasty as women. Some of the biggest bitches I’ve ever met have been heterosexual men. But, hey, that may be my Saturn/Sun square talking. When you grow up with a stepfather nitpicking you about your appearance and humiliating you in front of people, you pretty much lose any illusion that men are nicer than women. I guess that’s one good thing about that nasty aspect.

  10. I hunt those I consider to be silly, arrogant, or bullying. Statistically more of those tend to be women (because I know more women) but I’m equally happy to get on the case of men.

    But if I think you are stupid? Or somehow offensive to me? I will either say something pointed, or I will learn more about you to see whether I can change my mind and also to exercise my righteous indignation that I have.

    Scorpio Moon in the 3rd house.

  11. Oh, and men are not predatory and competitive with each other? I guess you never heard the expression “cock block” or have someone employ the technique on you. Men do it to each other all the time.

  12. I voted undecided, and the poll kind of did make me uncomfortable. I’d say I’m the victim of a women hunters which I tend to ignore to the best of my ability. I find it way more easier to relate to guys but I’d say I’m probably more playfully critical with them than women. Moon in scorp conjunct Pluto in the 9/10 house…I have alot of difficulties with women…:: sigh::

  13. I tend to have mostly girl friends, because the men, to tell you the truth, kind of scare me. I am a naturally shy person, but love to make new friends. That’s Gemini for you! Like the poll says, I would really like to stop. It’s hard for me to talk to all people, but boys, i don’t even want to say it. :P

  14. (Cap Moon, 5th house)

    I used to be like that with other women. All my friends were men, I often acted like ‘one of the boys’, and I found most women to be annoying. It’s as though a significant hormonal shift happened in my when I had my son… During and after pregnancy, I finally found myself wanting the company of women more than men. Here it is, three years later, and virtually all the people I call ‘friends’ are women and it’s the men who catch hell from me.

  15. I voted uncomfortable, most likely because I know that I do this at times and it has been done to me a lot. To the point of being dangerous, and I don’t know why I attract these kind of women. It’s nuts! Moon in Sag in 10th conjunct mars, mercury, mc, square asc.

  16. Aq. moon, 7th house. I voted undecided. I have been dissed by men and women both, can’t say one is preferable, A diss is a diss.

  17. Sadge/Scorp/Scorp(moon in the 12th house)

    The question isn’t about the dark side of men or how men compete with each other or why. Women hunt and they don’t typically do it in the same manner or for the same reasons as men. I don’t think the reasons matter. My experience/observation has been women are a different type of hunter than men. Women’s jealousy/insecurity/egoism and various attributes that bring out the dark side of them often appears to have little basis in achieving a particular goal other than to feel superior or elevate themselves in some way, falsely I’d say. I believe the only way to elevate yourself in any form is to empower others regardless of your feelings for or about them. You do not have to remain bound in any way to those you empower; however, it is the act of doing this for other women that keeps you in constant growth as an individual. Recognizing we all have a shadow side is key. The desire to do good with it opens doors for everyone.

  18. I’d say…if you notice it or it happens significantly to you, it’s because it’s a part of you! I do notice when women are stupid but wouldn’t waste time hunting or attacking any more than I would with men. Men, especially in personal relationships, are more likely to get snarky comments from me. Eventually they’d get a huge buttload of aggression, due to their amazing passivity in this culture. (Women doing all the work in relationships is part of the stupidity I notice but it goes hand in hand with men being nearly completely limp-wristed in this area.) Haven’t put that much thought into it but would imagine those women who get ‘attacked’ are giving off I’m-fake vibes, they seem masculine, it’s hard to put a finger on what’s up with them so they get attacked.

    It’d be interesting in reading peoples’ responses to see if they worked mostly with men or women and if they’re dependent or independent (financially or otherwise) from men. I work mostly with women, a wide range of them so understand there’s more just two or three primitive blocky categories to put them in. I also see how their lives change and they can be stupid at one time and smarter or less a sucker to society’s conditioning later.

  19. I voted “uncomfortable,” but “I don’t consider a person’s sex” may also be true. I don’t notice myself hunting either one. Everybody gets a pass!

    I do tend to avoid women who hunt other women, though. I have Libra…lots of Libra…and bitchy back-biting offends my sense of harmony.

  20. I had Pluto opposing Moon and it didn’t come out in interactions with women – it had to do with extracting outdated childhood conditioning from my psyche. Trust Me: I’ll never put myself in a similar situation to the one I was in then. It was the end of naivete / innocence. And a man (or, I thought that’s what he was then) was the catalyst.

  21. I didn’t vote. I have a sag moon conj neptune in the 11th. I tend to look up to women, and want to be like them more often than use time and energy to criticize them. I’ve had women envy me, so i know it’s a fact. some gay men are like that too.

  22. Scorpio Moon.

    I’m not the type to sit there and criticize..I guess cause I’m not insecure. If anything, I like complimenting the person, making them feel good.. or appreciating what they have. I don’t know if this is a Scorpio Moon trait though.. aren’t they supposed to be the more jealous/envious type?

    Anyway, I’ve noticed quite a few girls that feel threatened by me…especially now that I’m in College, cause the Graphic Design field is really competitive. I’ve noticed the tension: they start picking on me infront of others, talking down to me, trying to make me look bad in general and it’s just reeaally obvious lol.. and then they turn around and copy me. My artwork, an idea, even the way I look. There’s this one girl who would constantly criticize my pink hair infront of everyone and then just a few weeks ago she dyed it black and pink as well “Hey Mayla, Check out my New Hair!”…lol. She’d also criticize my weight.. saying I was “Too Skinny” (she’s pretty big) and then turn around and call me a “Pig” joking around cause I eat a lot of junk food..and I don’t really gain weight (I have a fast metabolism). But yeah. POINT IS: It happens and I notice it a lot. Pretty psycho. Oh well. The good news is that not all girls are like that :]

  23. Sag moon here. I don’t criticize women unless they are being egregiously bad.

    I am slightly more critical of men, but I wouldn’t consider myself a “hunter” of them. They’d have to give me ammo first.

  24. Libra moon, conj Pluto, 8th house :-D I tend to avoid other women, if I can. I don’t like them, I hate the way they can be so catty and evil…If you don’t have something nice to say, bugger off! ;) Seriously, I hate how nasty women can get when their competitive nature strikes…I don’t necessarily favour men either. I just like NICE people. :)

  25. I dont have a preference one way or another. Aquarius moon here. People are people and if a person pisses me off male or female, they are not excluded from the wrath.

  26. gemini moon in 12th house square pluto

    this is a very interesting subject since i have been looking a little closer at the meaning of black lilith moon and the shadow side of femininity etc. i did not vote in the poll. wish Elsa you had included an entry like “been there done that and am wiser for it”.

    when i was a young girl i would always stand by my friends, especially females, and more or less dislike the people they were disliking at the time without too much thought.

    as a young adult i dove myself into the women’s movement and only read & saw things created by women, and primarily hung out with other women.

    just prior to this period, i had experienced some not so nice situations with guys, so my defenses were up and active. of course given this mind-set, i managed to turn the other cheek to the terrible things some of my female relatives were perpetuating on me during that period. in essence, i suppose i was operating in a sphere of hypocrisy, but could not see it at the time.

    as a grown woman i am more aware of my own role in the hunt as well as the hunted. i am accepting the range of bitches i embody (from the meow type to the necessary bitch). i’ve kicked the pedastal from underneath the goddess and am willing to make attempts to meet her on some kind of level playing field, but not at the expense of believing all men are the enemy and all women are victims ~no can do since i am seeking some kind of balance on the matter.

    there are other areas that both men and women equally rankle me like race, colour, sexuality, desirability, work, etc., but this is not the place to go into those issues.

    i am not totally uncomfortable with competition. if it takes a pang of envy to get me to start paying attention to stuff that is happening inside me, and i can make the break between the other person (incite) and where i come into it (i.e. what does my envy say about me), then i welcome it.

    i admire how protective you are of your friend’s identity given the circumstances and wonder if it is something other women and men are aware of doing in similar situations?

  27. Cancer moon. I used to be very critical of women until I admitted my competitive nature and stopped being a pseudo-victim. But I live in a culture where the women are HORRID to each other. The competition amongst women while the men are pampered beyond belief has changed my attitude. I’m much harder on men now—and it’s been interesting because men now really treat me like a ‘person’, because I”m older, but really because I just don’t play the games that other women in this culture do. When the women in a culture are constantly harping on each other and competing in nasty little ways, I don’t see much hope for the country at all.

    Harrumph.

    Old grump.

    Indeed.

  28. I dont hunt. It is too easy to find what is wrong with the world. I dont see the point. I do it sometimes, but I try my best to stop myself. The more time you take to see the good, the more good your going to see and the better you will feel about yourself.

  29. CK, I think you might be on to something when you mention the ‘giving off fake vibes’ thing. I tend to think I’m shy and insecure, which I am, but have been told that I definitely do not come off that way (sag sun/pisces rising, sag moon). I’ve worked mostly for men who have been like crappy father figures, yelling at me like a child rather than an employee. Never really worked for women. Have worked with men and women, but for the last few years, mostly women, although the boss is still a man. I think I may finally be getting a woman boss soon, and I can’t wait to see how it goes. I’m yet again leaving another job because of a crappy, male boss.

    I do agree with you about women doing most of the work in relationships, but if we don’t, who will? Would there be viable relationships ever? Would men finally get the hint? There will always be women out there who will put up with crap and do all the hard work, but imagine NONE did. What would happen?? I wonder. I’m guilty of doing this myself.

    The women Ive been attacked by have been primarily co-workers who have a hell of a lot more than me in terms of material goods, are not lacking in any dept. that I can visibly see, but they go for the jugular. It’s not petty, it’s I want to hurt you and make you lose your job/man/health type hunting, even down to physical violence. I fight back, but do not return it bit for bit, it takes too much energy.

  30. I am in complete agreement with 21-Stephanie…what you wrote affected me quite a lot, especially your thoughts on how you do not have to be tied to those you empower. More people could benefit from your outlook! Must be all that Scorpio in your chart, that’s classic Scorpio stuff.

    I have been rudely awakened from my ignorance bliss when it comes to women-hunters. I especially hate the whole body-image competition thing, having suffered from a disordered view of self for years. I hate how somehow being thin makes other women feel that my thoughts and stance on body issues are NOT VALID.

    I fucking love women.

  31. Ha, I got cut off!

    I love men, too, thought they piss me off in other ways. I grew up with 5 women in the house and a misogynistic mother, and developed a women-women-ra-ra-ra attitude for years.

    As for my Moon, it is in the 1st house–Capricorn. People may assume that I am emotionally incapable of standing on my own two feet, and I do act like an emotional sponge, not knowing what is mine and what belongs to someone else (in terms of self-doubt, etc).

    I think that’s why the empowering stuff affected me so deeply, I believe it with every inch of my being and being a 1st house Moon, I am always happy to read something I recognize as something I believe, too. It makes me feel less lonely in this big bad world.

  32. And then…
    I wanted to add that my love of women stemmed from having a misogynistic mother, as a coping tool I guess. It’s called over compensation. No one is perfect.

  33. Cancer Moon. I definitely hunt women way more than men. Jealousy is one of the emotions I feel most frequently. I’m jealous of people of both sexes who are smarter than me, have been able to travel, are self reliant… I judge pretty women harshly and weirdly. I also judge feminine beauty very strictly. I always wanted to be the very prettiest and smartest but began to get over the first at some point. Sometimes I can’t deal with talking to a person so much smarter than me. I have a bad bias against the attractive girl half of a couple or one that sleeps with someone I have a crush on for a while.
    If I do, I don’t mean to hunt the women on this site. Way more women than men write/comment on here and the only thing that bothers me is some of the things women have said in comments, but now I’m doing it too.

  34. Another Virgo moon here…conjunct Pluto. I’ve always been pretty much a live and let live type of person, but the last couple of years I have felt very hunted by women and I’m not sure why. I don’t feel particularly threatening, but if I get backed into a corner I don’t hestitate to bring out my sharpest tongue. I would like to like women, and I have a couple of gal pals, but I cannot do the buy clothes you don’t need with money you don’t have and gripe about the men that are trying to keep you in the lifestyle you think you deserve. I tried hanging with those types for about a minute and just couldn’t do it.
    Interesting topic!

  35. Capricorn Moon*Mars, 9th.
    Sadge Venus*Uranus, 7th, so I guess I recently went through a Pluto Transit.

    I’m a woman, and I’m not sure about whether I do it….. But, asking these questions don’t make me uncomfortable anymore.

    I’ve been dealing with this issue all through college and my adolescence experiencing the “hunting” as well as discussing/interacting/living with my friend, who is deathly suspicious of “GirlWorld”. She’s quite the guy’s girl… but she does have friends who are girls. She just doesn’t trust them…. completely. (Does this include me?) And, because of this, I’ve observed the dark *possibility* of this “womanhunting”/”cattiness” within myself as well as my other friends.

    Haha, so…. she has this theory of GirlWorld, where every woman is out for the “AlphaFemale” position and will knock out whomever seems to be threatening her Queendom. I can laugh heartily at this almost morbid image of womanhood, but… at the same time, it may be partly true.

    Insane right? Well…. Okay, here it is.

    Talking about it with her has made me very aware of how girl groups *do* work within adolescence and how this behavior can transfer to adulthood. It’s like the regular girl at school, suddenly becoming the Odd Girl Out (eye-opening book by Rachel Simmons), when she gets cut down by the group, until she’s nothing. (Every girl has seen this happen at some point in their lives.) And usually this group was her clique, her posse. And usually the girl considered these other girls as her “friends”.

    In Odd Girl Out, one of the most poignant points the author made was…. that when the girl clique had attacked the girl, it’s because they thought *they* were the victims or could be the victims and so, they fought back. +++ Years later, many of the women who had bullied others as pre-teen and adolescent girls didn’t remember harassing them AT ALL, but those *same* women remembered the hurt and pain of being bullied by other girls as if it was yesterday.

    **** Sometimes, it’s a sense of vulnerability…. meaning, if they don’t “fight back” or “criticize” the other/”othered” woman, then, they fear that … the weakness could arise within them in some way. They criticize other women so that won’t *seem* like the the other woman, or that they’ll stop seeing the traits of the other woman within themselves.

    Women attacking other women for their actions just might show an insecurity about their positions in society. I remember how I felt.

    It might also demonstrate how women (which may include me) still feel unable to be on equal footing with men. Women maybe only use this on other women because they know what hurts the most for many of the Venus variety (at least, in adolescence):
    Being a girl, alone, cut off from friends, invisible yet naked, and completely vulnerable.

    Hmmm…. reading other’s comments, maybe I was a little off-topic. Hehe :-D Oh well. Hope that added to the discussion in some way.

    I don’t know about whether I do it now or if I really ever did… But I do know that every woman. including myself has the possibly to womanhunt… It’s just about recognizing it within yourself and being mature about it. Forcing yourself to look in the mirror about truly why you’re angry. It’s about really discerning that feeling of insecurity and getting to the root of *why* you feel this way inside. And forgiving youself as well as the other person.

    Pluto in Sagittarius
    Part of it is recognizing honestly how human we are. Yes, adultery happens. Yes, prostitution & porn exist. Yes, we are all prejudiced/biased against others in one way or another. (We categorize just by fitting people with words.) The question is how do we deal with this information? Do we ignore it? Or do we rise above and choose to understand, instead of denounce?

    Wow! That was long.

  36. moon in scorpio – conjunct pluto, conjunct jupiter, opposite venus.

    it’s unfair and unfortunate that women look down on women for superficial reasons or simply being female. people (emphasis on “people”) in my world get treated in occordance to how they act, but hopefully better because nobody deserves anyone else’s personal aggressive emotional shit. judgemental thinking gets in the way of the freedom of personal expression, so i try to ignore other people and just be ‘me’, and try to extend that same thing to others as best i can. it doesn’t always work and i’m not perfect (although i am full of myself, heh), but hey, i’m still young and working on it.

    going to have to agree with post(er) #21, too.

  37. Not only are the posts and Elsa’s replies getting longer but so are the comments!!! :-D And has this post beat the record yet for number of comments?

  38. Interesting topic, and I wasn’t sure how to answer it. I AM more critical of women, I guess, even though I’m not competitive (Taurus moon). I’m working in an office environment where I just don’t fit in well, the other women are very competitive and back-stabbing. I get along fine with all of the men there.

  39. Another vote for Violet. That was awesome :>

    Are women and men unequal? I kinda hold the view that they are of the same genus, but two entirely different (and thus not always comparable) species. And that they both hunt, when they do, for a variety of reasons. Much like a pet kitty, they don’t really *need* to hunt for survival…or, maybe they do; the world is not so tamed, perhaps…but the instincts are there regardless. And maybe sometimes it is out of boredom. Or the exhilaration of the chase. Or jealousy. Or vengeance. All of which may be misguided. Or not.

    I’ve been known to hunt on (rare) occasion. I don’t do it for sport–I don’t find hunting amusing. But I will do it to equalize when a pre-existing social structure is threatened–if you sign onto my team, you’d better be a team player because if you hurt the team I may just take you back out! I clearly recall hunting down a co-worker who was increasingly disrupting the entire office. Everyone wanted her to leave because her actions and personality were detracting from the synergy we’d built as a whole, so I slowly but determinedly chased her out because I knew I could, and the well being of the whole and what we were trying to accomplish was of more importance to me than the one. She never forgave me, but I never regretted being the instrument that got her gone! And of those who figured out what was going on, they were quite grateful I dealt with it and made their lives easier for it. (And for anyone wondering, no–I didn’t get her fired. I just made her feel so unbearably uncomfortable that she eventually transferred out to the first position that came open that was anywhere away from me!)

    With Moon opposite Pluto, I suppose that is an energy I can tap–if I’m willing to accept that power and use it in that way (it can also be used to probe and then heal, btw). And I will also use it to protect my friends (both men and women, which I have in fairly equal proportions) from anyone of either sex who decides to be a problem, if it seems that help is needed or desired. Most of the time now, I try to practice detachment (Moon opposite Uranus), and simply study the situation (Moon in 9th, trine Jupiter) for what I can learn, and hopefully transcend sticky issues (Moon trine Neptune) without becoming victim to them (Moon in Pisces), because I am also now aware that I am inclined to undo myself as a person (Moon trine 12th house Sun) and have had particular difficulties with my emotional comfort as a woman and in my relationships (Moon square Venus) which can lead to being rather insecure and therefore critical and/or hurtful as a reactionary, defensive response. It’s not always easy to remember to think twice (Moon inconjunct Mercury) before reacting, but doing so sure helps me be a better me to the world (Moon trine Asc).

    Like Violet said, been there done that learning to be wiser.

  40. I voted, “Do it, but would like to stop.”

    In all honestly, I’m critical of everyone and don’t make it a point to hunt anyone in particular, although I will call someone out on what I view as hypocrisy, idiocy, destructive behaviour, etc. But I have noticed that I do the stupid girl-hater thing, and I’m trying to fix it by being conscious of it when it happens and working on my underlying self-esteem issues.

    8H Aquarian Moon. Me-n-Amber, woot!

  41. Christine, what you said about the way that your being thin makes other women think your position on body issues is not valid reminds me of something. There is a girl in my college who quit modeling in her teens. She is quirky, intelligent, and told me how much she hated the modeling world. She has had this quote, “Beauty fades but stupidity is forever” written on her wall for a while. I think this attests to how she has to fight to keep people from judging her by the way she looks or assuming that she doesn’t eat. I gawked at her in a venomous way when I first met her, not able to appreciate her or the way she might have felt “too thin and cold” at any point. I worry that she could tell this, and since I don’t know her very well or see her often, believes I continue to think that way. A lot of people think thin women’s body issues are invalid or, in a way, think “what do they have to gripe about?” I wonder how much of a trend it is for people to assume that women with physical traits considered beautiful during the time should be completely satisfied with themselves. If I think of Renaissance drawings of women by artists that were roughly contemporaries Titian or Botticelli, I have to take in all of what might have been subjective in their portrayal of beauty. For example, they might have been from a different place or school in Italy, Titian is from the Venetian school, and might have a different obsession or artistic vision of perfect beauty. Women might still have been pretty harsh judges of other women at any point, though. I’d say that La Rochefoucauld’s short sayings, reflective of the French court, had in them a testament to how vain and catty women of the court were. The intrigues of older female lovers of kings against younger ones are a good example too. I would have to make a quick judgment and say that the mass media makes a more common image of beauty than even that of French fashion at any time. It’s what really distinguishes us and what we think is beautiful. But hey, maybe the reason that Homer was able to empathize with Helen of Troy and not make fun of her dresses is that he was a man.

  42. I’ve actually been thinking lately about what makes American people, particularly male and female gossip bloggers, accept one celebrity as attractive and sexy and call another one a whore. I think it’s some weird combination of prudery and how much sexuality women can have in American culture. Sex is used in advertising but I feel like the fine line is between what is considered classy and what is blatantly sexual. It’s a kind of American self delusion, I think, but I haven’t found the words for it yet. Like Elsa was talking about people calling Britney Spears a whore and I would contrast it with how they rave about how sexy Evangeline Lilly or Eva Longoria is. Perhaps they combine something charming and demure that lets them be that way.

  43. There’s a class in my school about evolving Beauty Image/Body Politics that deals with this in a deeper way than my dumb cursory glances.

  44. Wow, Dani, there’s nothing dumb about your cursory glances! I think anyone who is willing to take a good long look at why they behave or think in ANY way is on the up and up to understanding the self and how to influence their motivations. You sound like you are a very self-aware person, which I think is ace. Just reading other posts before yours, there are a lot of folks who say “Yes, I do it” and attempt to justify it using the OTHER rather than the self. The fact is, looking at ourselves is always going to be more effective for change in general. That’s why I was so in awe of your honesty. It’s so goddamn progressive and it rocks.

    Often I think that the media portrayal of who’s whorish and who’s sexy yet demure is a crap-shoot. As for body image, my own self-hatred disappeared when I realized what was really going on with me: I was voiceless and felt unable to “expel” my emotions. Once I realized I could just talk to people and have the confidence to express myself, that need to abuse myself VANISHED.

    But keeping on the theme of the post, I was hugely influenced by my female co-workers at the time of my recovery, all of who were very positive in their support–not of my recovery, which they had no clue about–of me joining their workforce and becoming part of the workplace. I credit my recovery to a wonderful bunch of women who had no idea how deeply they touched me just by being friendly.

    Oh, and that class sounds great!

  45. I feel like I’m getting to the party LATE! ;)

    Virgo moon, square mars, opp. venus. I didn’t used to have any female friends – only men. I didn’t relate to the competitive body image carping. I still don’t, but am, just the last few years as I’ve gained my OWN physical self-esteem started to see women attack me for eating healthy, exercising and not being overweight. Mostly, it’s a critisism of me in terms of “you look awfully skinny” “you look starved” “you look underweight” “are you eating” Ironically, my BMI is, for the first time since junior high, down to a 25 or so.

    I am financially independent of men and woman, work mostly with men and only “go after” men when they are proposing something blatantly stupid, poorly thought-out, or unsafe in the long run. (These are issues in our decision-making processes). Most of the time I don’t go after men because they won’t listen, don’t hear and aren’t interested in feedback that includes change in their life, thinking or actions -this often happens at work and I’ve found that my “going after them” mostly just alienates them from me, and advice or suggestions I could give.. etc. etc.. Close male friends excepted.

    I rarely go after women because the few women I work with or relate to are highly intelligent, well thought out and often offer better ideas, solutions, and thinking that I could possibly offer. I have a great deal of respect for most of the women I’m associated with. The few that I don’t have any respect for – well I leave them alone. My theory on this – I’ve got way too many other things to deal with in my life than trying to improve someone else. it happens on their own schedule at their own pace. If I’m ASKED for feedback- I give, bluntly, honestly.

    I have lots of casual male friends that I hang out with or talk shop with but only 4 close female friends. Those women are the backbone of my life (not counting family).

    Don’t know what else on this topic. It’s fascinating to read what everyone says. I would agree that men in our culture are passive. I would agree that there are issues here that we rarely deal with in an open and honest manner!!

  46. On the whole media labelling issue:

    For me at least, I tend to label those women who seem to be succombing to the perceived expectations of what other people want as, variously, skanks, bimbos, spineless, &c. (Depending, of course, on what their weakness/es is/are.)

    For example, this past summer a bunch of friends and I went to a convention where costuming plays a big part in the festivities. There were a lot of women in eye-catching costumes, which I could, by observing for only a short while, break into two very general groups: those who were (un)dressed as they were to get attention from others (mostly of the male variety), and those who were (un)dressed as they were because that’s what ~they~ liked.
    Those that seemed to wear what they liked regardless of attention earned kudos from me. Those that I perceived to be in a particular costume only to garner male attention aroused my distaste, for a number of reasons I won’t go into now, and I trash-talked them. Freely. To their face, behind their backs. Loudly!

    And, to be fair, my low self-esteem probably does feed into this. But, I also consider it a feminine weakness that we, as a gender, feel that we need to pander for men’s attention like that. Ergo, women that do this ~are weak~, at least to me.

    (. . .) There’s more I could say on this, but while I was sidetracked by a FTF conversation this train of thought left the station without me. Damn! ;) So, I kinda forgot my original point. I didn’t want to lose what I’d already written, though. Please forgive the abrupt ending.

  47. “But, I also consider it a feminine weakness that we, as a gender, feel that we need to pander for men’s attention like that. Ergo, women that do this ~are weak~, at least to me.”

    I’m curious, SaDiablo. Why do you feel that way? Bc I can tell you, male attention is very nice and it’s not necessarily that easy to get. I say this as someone who is supposedly attractive but who doesn’t do a good job at getting male attention (Moon square Venus, probably). And there comes an age when you begin to lose male attention and, dammit, I hear it hurts and I bet it does.

    Btw, Elsa, I read an interesting letter from an author who says that women’s criticism of other women stems from self-hatred. In other words, there’s such a thing as self-hating women! I don’t know if this is true or not, but it’s certainly an interesting theory bc I do think that women and typically traditionally female interests such as cooking, housekeeping, fashion, tending children, etc. are seen as being frivolous or unimportant. I do think that there’s an idea that powerful women should evolve out of that kind of stuff and go into more powerful fields such as medicine, finance, etc. Anyway, this is probably a digression from your original topic but I do think that we as a society look down on traditional female duties. Even male nurses don’t get much respect! Maybe chefs are the only ones who have a high profile in a traditionally female activity.

  48. It was more a function of the lengths these women would go to, Marly.
    I mean, a woman who ~wants~ to walk around in body paint and a thong wouldn’t have to look to her male friends/attendants for approval, right? But time and again I saw these women do just that, which, combined with non-confident body posture, made me feel like they were “pandering” and aroused my contempt.

    On a seperate-but-related note, I feel that way towards anyone, regardless of gender, who looks for approval *outside* of her/himself first, before considering what s/he truly wants. It’s a human weakness as well, not limited to just females. But, we were talking about the whole feminine thing, so. . . :)

  49. I have my moon in Scorpio conjuncted with Uranus. I voted for being more apt to criticize men and give women a pass- but only good women, which, I think is most women, but the bad ones tend to border on evil. Frankly I tend to prefer the company of men, and to just associate with them in general, but should one begin to use his gender as a weapon, well, they will soon have a very dangerous force to reckon with. Me. But I digress…..
    What women in this aggressively patriarchal society need is to band together, not to knock each other down and, especially not to kick our sisters when they’re already down!

  50. Wow! Thanks for all the great comments and stories — I really learned a lot from all of you! My two cents: I didn’t vote because there wasn’t a category that I felt fit me; Scorpio Moon in 2nd House; I read this blog all the time but this is my first contribution; and I agree with those writers who stated most “hunting” originates from feelings of jealousy or insecurity.

    I am not a “hunter,” more of a person who tries to build consensus. What’s interesting is that I’ve been hunted by women and men, but way more men than women have tried to take me out! Personally and professionally. A particularly intense period of that (7 years) is just now drawing to a close. I come from a Native culture indigenous to the northern US, and women aren’t supposed to lead, be brilliant, or do anything to attract attention to ourselves. When we do, we pay for it, and it’s always the men who start the character assassinations. Sure, some women do it too, but mostly we are trying to be supportive of one another. But I’ve drawn the ire of non-Native men too, so maybe it’s not a cultural thing.

    I’d really like to hear your thoughts on this, anyone who cares to comment.

  51. Uummmm.. Well. First of all, lol @ strawberryfields, you big tart! Secondly, I am more critical of other women, but also more encouraging…
    I always felt complete affinity with them, their insecurities, their moods, wants etc. Yet I never felt physically attracted to them, so I figured I was a gay man in a woman’s body.
    Men are fascinating, foreign and ..hard work.
    I have daddy issues so I cannot STAND being ordered around by a man. With regards to your blog Elsa, I must confess as soon as I see ‘Scott blahblahblah, or ‘the soldier blah blah’ I lose intrest, even get a bit annoyed. This is a WOMAN’S place. What we are talking about is secret woman’s business, or it seems that way to me. I don’t really appreciate men being here (unless they are gay) but it is a public forum and I have no control so I just have to suck it up and get over it :)

  52. Leo moon & don’t ‘hunt’ at all! Its taken people doig it to me for me to realise it exists- bit strange as I would’ve thought a leo moon q. competive but it is in the 8th house – cancer cusp

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

You may use these HTML tags and attributes: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>