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3 Years Ago On The Elsa Blog: Scott vs Arie On People Changing Their Natures
Astrology in real life
Running with a divergent crowd the way I do, there are times you find you have friends you respect with opinions at opposite ends of the spectrum. For example, take Scott and genius, Arie (a pseudonym). They are both derangedly intelligent men, who are fully actualized. By that, I mean they,ve both developed into distinct people. Neither of them is going to get blown around all that much.
Scott believes that redemption is possible for all human beings. He believes in miracles, he has seen them occur. He has seen people come from the depths and turn their lives around.
In contrast, Arie is quoted to say, “A reprobate is a reprobate is a reprobate!” He has another line, “Motherfuckers are going to do what motherfuckers are going to do”. And both men have life experience to support their theories.
Arie was a soldier in Special Forces and followed that up with a 30 year career as an Inspector for the San Francisco Police Department. He followed that up with a few more years service as part of the NYPD. On top of this, he has two degrees in the field of criminality, and a genius IQ so you’ve got to figure he knows something about reprobates!
On the other hand, Scott knows me. And I am sure if pressed I would be one of the people he would offer up as evidence to support his beliefs, that is he considers my life to be one of the miracles he’s witnessed.
So what do you think? Can all people be redeemed?
And do you have stories to support your beliefs? Please share!
pictured - Hieronymus Bosch. Death of the Reprobate. Oil on panel. Private collection, New York, USA.
28 Responses to “3 Years Ago On The Elsa Blog: Scott vs Arie On People Changing Their Natures”
I figure they’re both right, to some degree.
people are “bubbles” of their individual experiences and perceptions. when soneone garners up all the pain and fear they own without resistance, repression or denial - some sort of chemistry of transformation is invited from the ethereal.
some reprobrates ( not all) seem more likely to be vulnerable to that alchemy.
basically i agree with Scott….
I agree with Arie, even thought I’ve got more stories to support Scott’s pov. Huh? 
I think that the person is making a bad choice, and inside they know what they are doing is wrong. My personal belief is that there is good in everyone, and that good comes out at least sometimes. Like Chain mail. Some of it is made to teach people a lesson, but it is also bad. The people who make it probably think they are doing something good, or vice versa. Crimanals: they know deep inside they are doing something wrong, but on the surface they are thinking “Mwahahaha i’m so evil.” At least that’s my perspective. So i agree w/ Scott. I am ze 11 year old reader of the Elsa blog and don’t underestimate me!
I selected the Libra one, even though I am not one. I am of both minds … reprobates can change! Intelligent and curious people have done things they are not proud of - aka the bad boy/girl gone good. I do believe there are certain souls on earth who agree to fulfill a terrible, miserable role as the “bad” person to move the earth experience forward (think Hitler). (Forgive my grammar here - I am lazy, groggy, and in a hurry! )
It’s like the energy of an object: something that has possible energy. There are factors that would contribute to the stationariness of some. Some people just have inertia.
It’s easier for some to stay the same than to commit to change. Change means challenging what you hold dear. For some, their dear things are hideous to an outsider (drugs, crime, whatever).
So while I can see what Scott means–it’s true, people CAN redeem themselves, I lean on Special Force’s answer. For some, isn’t going to happen. Redemption will not happen in this lifetime for some people, because the work is too big for them to handle. And thus the inertia is born. And I have empathy for people–as I am sure both of these men do. If I felt that I couldn’t change my life when I was 16, I would be dead by now.
Belle: that makes people like Hitler sound like boddhisatvas. I have a problem with that concept.
7th house Gemini sun. I’m not a Libra but I’m playing one in this comment.
What is closer to the truth is that I believe that some people can transcend and be redeemed and others couldn’t change their spots to save their lives. I’ve got a pretty good track record at being able to tell which ones are which.
I think everyone has the potential to turn their lives around, but it has to do with a helluva lot of freewill. It takes a conscience choice to change, to evolve into a better human being, and for some people, it’s just easier to follow the path they’ve already carved out.
I agree with Scott, because I need to have that belief. If I don’t, then there isn’t much hope in life, is there?
“I’ve got a pretty good track record at being able to tell which ones are which.”
Ooh, Lupa, how can you tell? Or is it more like a psychic thing and/or that you have to see people in person?
I think that some people can change. However, that doesn’t mean that I will stick around to see them change. They have to show me the money first. I say this as someone who has always been more like Scott and, man, was I burnt. I have second and third and fourth and even 20 chances to people who promised and promised and never did anything to change. So now I won’t write people off but I’ll definitely change my number so they can’t find me.
I always believe that it’s possible for people to change. I’ve certainly changed over the years, so why can’t they? I think it’s more a problem of whether they want to change… For some people, it’s easier to be assholish than not, and they pick the easy route rather than put the work into being decent.
I’m with Scott mostly, because otherwise life wouldn’t make much sense. I beleive we are here to learn and improve. But I also beleive that some people can live an entire lifetime and not improve, or even become worst and worst.
I believe it is part to the human condition to have Transformation as an option.
I think everybody -can- change, but for your own personal well being you shouldn’t expect them to do so.
I have to believe people are capable of change—but I also have to believe that some simply won’t. There are moments of choice, this road or that road? Ah shit, I sound like a Guru trying to cover all the bases. Basically, the choice is there and some people simply won’t take it even when it kicks them in the face. Cut them loose.
I can’t decide but Bosch is my favorite!
Marly, I just saw your question for me.
“Ooh, Lupa, how can you tell? Or is it more like a psychic thing and/or that you have to see people in person?”
First I want to say that I don’t think it is impossible for anyone to change but some people are willing to do the work required and some are never going to do it.
I do not have to see people in person to get alot of information about them. It is definitely a psychic thing for me and I use this intentionally when I do tarot readings or astrology for people. I occasionally get spontaneous information about strangers or friends, but my intention is that I do not snoop into people’s business. I only read people when they ask me to.
I couldn’t say exactly what my criteria is for giving someone another chance. I don’t forgive easily if I’ve been betrayed but I have made enough mistakes that I hope not to be judged too harshly myself.
Marly, I think I do not have a problem with that concept because I strive not to see the world as black and white … I am trying to get rid of the duality-mindset featured in the rigged game that is this 3-D world. I do not want to be either “good” or “bad” partly because I believe some “good” people are good for the wrong reasons, i.e., for selfish reasons. I guess what I am trying to say is I am trying to learn the art of detached compassion.
Does that, in any way, clarify a bit where I was coming from? (For what it is worth, I am half German Jewish.)
(typing here in order to subscribe to the comments for this blog)
..but i’m not a libra.
it really depends on the motivation. a “reprobate” who never wakes up stays that way. if they decide, seriously, to do something, then miracles can happen.
I voted with Arie…and would like to add the clarification that while I love the concept that people can change their life, choose their actions, et cetera, I am unattached to the outcomes of other people’s beahviours. It’s a giant mystery to me, anyway I slice it.
But you are who you are…how a person chooses to bring their energy onto the earth plane seems to me to be a concept entirely separate from the energy itself.
I really don’t know if all people can be redeemed–how can anyone be sure? I think of returning soda cans to the store. Will some people be redeemed for 5 cents?
If there is a God, then i hope God knows the answer. Speaking as a human though, i find some acts completely totally unredeemable and i suppose everyone has their list of the unredeemable.
I have Jupiter in Libra sextile Venus — but no Libran personal planets. Often I think there is no definitive answer. Except for my list of unredeemable acts, of course 
There should be universal moral laws here on earth. But many disagree on what those laws should be.
Sigh.
well i guess it depends on what makes one a reprobate.
there’ve been cracks in my own head i’ve done a decent job of fusing back together, at least…
i guess, my point is… healing is always possible. an that can fix a lot of problems.
depends on the person.
I’m not a Libra and I can’t decide!
Maybe I’m waiting to see what works and what doesn’t work for me.
Both of them may well be right! Sometimes, folks live in different worlds with different truths. And I’m still feeling out my world. Or… I’m still choosing my world.
Great topic. Fascinating. =]
Now there’s one of my favorite artists.
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There are shades of gray. If the person cheats I’m in the “he’s not going to change” category. If the person is from Sudan and grew up without parents and did something not so good, then, well potential.
Intent and understanding have a lot to do with the whole deal.
peace