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Pluto Direct In Sagittarius - Speaking Of Obsessive Beliefs, The Violent Polarization Over The US Election And The Horrible Effect On Libra
Astrology in real life
It’s killer out there for someone like me. For one thing I have gifted / cursed with Libra and I have no choice at all but to see both sides of any issue. If you have Libra yourself, I expect you understand but if not try to understand there are people out there who find it almost impossible to pick a side. Family feud? Libra see that both Mom and Sis have a point. Further when people like me encounter your extreme position we feel pretty near compelled to counter it. To move you toward the opposite pole in order to balance things.
Well let me tell you something. Pull a Libra move today and you’re liable to get nuked. People think what they think and if you say anything even remotely counter it, they immediately grab a hammer and begin beating you with it.
I am finding this excruciating for a few reasons. One, I don’t like to lie to my friends. So when one of them goes on a tirade outlining their extreme position, I hate to say nothing because it leaves them to believe I agree with them which I certainly do not.
But if I do try to say something - well these days you can get your ass kicked into the next state and further, you will be stomped into the ground and what the hell is this? What happened to a person’s right to hold an opinion that is not yours? And if I do tell you I disagree, does this mean I want to debate it? I don’t want to debate it. I don’t want your rhyme and reason shoved down my throat. I don’t want you to enlighten me.
See this gets more complicated for me because I am from an era where it was taught and well understood that it was IMPOLITE to discuss these three subjects: Politics, Religion and Money. In other words, you did not ask someone how much money they make, you leave them alone around their religious beliefs and it’s no one’s business who anyone else is voting for. Well let me tell you, those days are gone.
The soldier is a registered Independent and people knock on the door looking for him EVERY DAY. They have his name in their hard as if. As if they are going to be able to manipulate him into voting for their candidate. Come again? I think this is rude! See the Libra there? It’s ruuuuuuuuuuude. But here’s the worst. Here is the LOSS (Pluto).
I grew up with Henry, who had five planets in Sagittarius. Henry loved religion. His was home grown but he loved talking to religious people and he had them over all the time. He had them alllllllll over, Catholics to Hare Krishnas and everyone in between.
And I was taught there was nothing more sacred than a person’s beliefs. I was taught that a person’s beliefs should always be respected which is one of the reasons the United States is so grand. We have the freedom to choose (or not choose) our religion but it seems to me these days are gone. Just try it. Just try to tell someone you don’t agree with what they believe and see what it does to your friendship.
I don’t have a solution for this but I am doing everything I can to align with people and find commonality through these next months. I am also going to continue to live by my own tenets which hold a person that a person has a right to believe what they want and certainly to vote their belief.
And it they happen to believe something I don’t, I am not going to assume they are stupid because in fact I have been alive long enough to know that in fact, I may be the one who is wrong.
The sky supports this type trick you know. It is a Saturn Uranus OPPOSITION. I really don’t think people understand how oppositions work in practice (not theory) but hey. That’s just my belief and you’re welcome (really and truly welcome) to believe otherwise.
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good lord i know exactly what you’re talking about. it’s like a wave lately. i don’t have libra (and therefore don’t feel the need to counterbalance the extremes) but still feel weird with them. and it’s not just a little - it’s POW! Pow! and it’s all very religious - even the nonreligous topics. i feel the whole place is caught up in competing revivals.
i have been smiling, saying things like, “ummmm” while people talk and not offering any feedback. the only person i’ll talk about these issues to is my husband, who isn’t going to get p.o.’d if i don’t agree with him or think i’m an idiot.
I have Saturn and Jupiter in Libra (Pluto too, but I don’t know how significant it is being a generational thing) and BOY HAVE I BEEN FEELING THIS TODAY. I had made my mind up about something a few days ago and now… I am stuck in the middle with HONESTLY no idea where to go. I can see pros and cons on both sides.
BLAH!!!!
Man, I’m glad someone finally defended the right to respectfully disagree. Something has definitely happened, people no longer respect this basic tenant of communication. Apparently, you are either in complete agreement or you are the enemy. Talk about obsessive!
I have 3 planets in Libra (balance by 3 in Aries ;)) and I lean toward balance, even if it means defending the opposing point of view. Reality naturally is balanced and has a mix of different views, and when only one side is expressed, reality is unbalanced and distorted - and that’s not real!
One of my dearest friends is also my political opposite. Only he is polite in manner and speech, and I sometimes like to smile and drop bombshells. Today I asked him to calmly tell me exactly why he believes what he does, so I could practice being polite in manner and speech, without smiling, getting loud, or dropping any bombshells in response. And he did, he knew exactly what I was asking of him. He knows I disagree with him about a lot of things, but he loves my passion, and today, he helped me calm my Libra nerves. So this is a tactic I freely throw out there for anyone who may wish to use it over these next few months. Warning though, it only works with someone you respect and admire, and who feels the same way in return. Otherwise, you may want to stick to yourself and stock up on Ben and Jerry’s. It’s going to be a lloooong couple of months.
I’m all Libra’d out in my chart. And I pulled a coupla Libra moves today - one political (but more of a sincere question than rhetoric), and one in a travel plan, and … yep, NUKED!
Yikes.
I agree with you wholeheartedly, Elsa, about how impolite it is (a guy in the bank today was ranting) (about last night’s speech) so loudly, I couldn’t here myself think. We were in a bank for criminey’s sakes!
But something has happened recently, where I think I’ve “come out of the closet” with my beliefs. I hid them for years b/c I was always persecuted and “You???” “You believe in THAT????”
Now it’s just like here it is, this is me, I ain’t hiding anymore. I don’t care. And I don’t do it for effect. I’m just tired of hiding.
I grew up with religious fanaticism so luckily I am adept at tuning out the noise..usually.
I remember once a man (stranger) freaking out at me and calling me a fucking idiot because I said I didn’t believe in the death penalty. Well maybe I do and maybe I don’t; maybe I do on a Wednesday and not a Tuesday! I remember being astounded this guy cared so much what I thought, really really shocked.
I feel like there is something about my energy that has people continuously trying to “correct me” or “explain” to me how silly/crazy/stupid/naive I am to believe certain things. I’ve been told it’s a 1st House Moon issue; they think I am a baby.
I admit to hiding some of my beliefs. This became a crucial issue while Pluto was closing in on my ASC, but now that it’s moving towards my 1st House I’m back to silence.
Not because I’m afraid (and I was before, believe me, I didn’t like upsetting people).
I’m just tired, man. So many people are talk talk talking all the tiiiiime about what they believe and I tell you I have HAD it. I am TIRED.
I feel like I have more to gain from listening at this stage of my life, more than any other time.
TONS of Libra in my chart - Sun, Mercury, Venus, Saturn and Pluto. The rest is Sag, save for a Leo rising and Jupiter in Scorpio. Yes, the last two days have been hell. I watch American politics very closely and all that is going through my mind is, how in the hell can this be happening? The collective insanity is vast and severe. Realize it’s all about fear - from either side. Are you more afraid of a McCain-Paulin presidency or are you more afraid of an Obama-Biden? Both sides have their point in this respect…but, even as a Libra, I know what is right and what is wrong. (Justice.)
So, everyone must take a side in this. Even for a hopelessly indecisive Libra, there is no way you can be in disagreement about the issues that this transit (and the election as a microcosm) brings up. Are you asleep or semi-conscious? Is the hazy impression you get of life sleep walking through it enough, or do you need some substance, meat, rationale? In an ultimate sense, both are crazy - that’s the world. But what are you more afraid of: facing your shit or the fact that not facing your shit can make you crazy?
This Libra is going absolutely nuts.
Pluto in Capricorn anyone??? Who’s ready
Perhaps we should form a mars in libra support group for folks who don’t want to fight over the next two months.
I have my opinions. thing is I’m not that attached to an outcome. I guess I figure that what should be will be, regardless of what I think about it or what I want. at the moment I’m just finding others’ opinions to be interesting.
I am somewhat afraid of being judged and executed for my opinions tho. that seems entirely possible in this climate.
If I could choose a religion, one that I was not born into, I would choose Taoism. Bend like a willow in the windstorm. Have no position to defend. I do live like this most of the time. I have Libra too and will help people[Virgo]-move to the centre [Libra]. But I avoid conflict where possible. So when other people start debating and arguing about their beliefs, I do a little skit skat diddly doo and wander off and think to myself what a beautiful day to be alive!
I have sun in Libra, ascendant in Libra and moon in Aquarius. So I am basically super-Libra. And these past days have been horrible. I´m not cranky no, I am in a very bad mood cause I can´t make a decision that will probably change my life.
Anyway… Thank you Elsa. Thank you very much! I totally agree. I had the worst fight ever at the office. As much as usually see the two sides of a discussion, today someone was trying to impose his thoughts about another subject that should not be discussed unless you want to and that is SEX.It´s not polite either. How I think and what I do with my sexuality is not a subject to be discussed if I don´t want to and even less, to make me change it. I have the right to disagree.
Monica, I just went through this on this blog a few days ago. Someone did not agree with advice I gave (on a 2 year old post)and asked me to justify it. I did justify it but whatever I said was not enough. I spent an hour going back and forth trying to (diplomatically) explain my thought process because I really like the person but nothing I said could be accepted. It just was NOT OKAY I did not agree with this gal and finally I conceded… we will just have to disagree.
That was also rejected and it was just painful.
Thanks for showing up and tending the bar even when the patrons are unruly (and I know I’ve become unruly myself–probably because my deluded 12th House Neptoon likes to get boozy!)
kashmiri -cheers
elsa- you deserve better
thanks spinner. your kindness on this blog is always a treat, too.
i’m unwilling to talk of anything to deep with people unwilling to accept the existence and potential validity of alternate perspectives. it’s just not worth the trouble.
at least in private. i have different obligations as a teacher, but i also have the prerogative to close down a conversation if it’s detracting from the topic at hand.
i like you too kashmiri!
Elsa: I totally see where u come from. And believe me as you say, at the end, it is not accepted and it is painful.
I had to finish the discussion with an ” Ok, I am not going to try to explain anything else, but you will have to respect me by not talking to me about this subject again, because it makes me feel uncomfortable and as I do respect your point of view you will have to do the same. I´m done with this subject, which we shouldn´t even discuss so don´t even try to go there again. Whether you agree with me or not, is not the point”.
And he looks at me shrugs and “smiles”. and says ” ok”. we will have to talk about this another day, cause you are cranky.
What part of NO, can´t he understand?
jeez!
After angry family opposition the other night I have got to the zen point that when I feel bad its often because of other’s thoughts being projected onto me which makes me lose my balance or my connection. Instead of analyzing and freaking I am attempting to go to the places that reconnect me again - like walking by the water or a little meditation.
This is my intention.
For you Americans though, it is like you are being called to arms and this is necessary not so?
I am not American and I would just like to say how intrigued I am to watch your discussions on this blog. I am proud of all the seeking and uncovering that is going on. It really is a mad house there, but it needs to be cos somethings gotta give, so good luck through this Mercury retrograde time coming up - for all of us earthlings actually
I think kashmiri posted this above?
“I have my opinions. thing is I’m not that attached to an outcome.”
I think that is absolutely KEY. I don’t know if this is how she meant it, but what I took from it is that the other person’s unreasonableness is not necessarily something that can be fixed, nor are others necessarily required to spend energy trying to fix it.
We don’t live in a world where people concede the points of others often or easily (or tactfully), because our egos are all bound up and having a Capital O OPINION is one of the ways people try to get ground underneath themselves and have a self. The weaker and more insecure the self, the more rigidly and loudly the opinion is held. It’s just a feature of humanity and I don’t think it needs to be taken that seriously. That’s just my opinion, though
great comment llama
llama I agree with that sentiment, but satori actually wrote that. I also agree with your thoughts on the Self. I don’t want to be so attached to my ideas I’m blinded by them.
For me, two issues I try not to discuss with people (primarily people I don’t know well) are religion and abortion. Those two topics have such strong emotional connections with people that they have a hard time letting the emotional part go in order to have an intellectual conversation. I’ve learned to just stay the heck out of such discussions with people I don’t know so as to avoid major knock down drag out fights. My world is much more peaceful that way.
I understand this too well, with a Libra stellum, in 12th, no less.
For the last few years it seems like everybody’s taken radio talk show hosts as role models. If you’re tactful or respectful it means you’re deceitful, wimpy, and probably have a forked tongue.
I’m worried that things will continue to be hard for libra (especially Pluto-in-libras) when Pluto hits Capricorn again. Oh well, it’ll be life experience.
Oh brother. I think I just projected my shadow all over the place. Argh.
I’m trying to just stay even, grounded, not get into discussions. I don’t want that right now; I’m focused on other things. Yet, all the old blogs I read suddenly turned political and seemingly all discussions with anyone and everyone have politics imbued.
And I’m someone who’s walking around going, “I don’t talk about that stuff with people.”
Then why is it that ALL I’M DOING is talking about that stuff with people?
I think it’s coming from me.
Example, I read a blog about Italy, I look forward to it every day, It’s even become an escape from the insanity going on all around me right now. And she goes and says she’s going to post her views on the elections! And I just freaked out in the comments and told her that would make one reader very very sad.
Next thing you know, e-mails are flying, comments are coming in and … I was the one who didn’t want to talk about it.
Apparently I have a shadow that does?
Good grief.
Oh, shit, kashmiri. Sorry. It was early in the morning :0
In college I grew to have some disgust for the need to be the devil’s advocate and counter one extreme with another. I thought that the reason for a debate is a thirst for the truth beyond attachment to our own ideas. If we search for balance, we don’t care about the true outcome or the debate is not serious enough that we can go on living without excavating the truth. If a Libra balances one point with the other, maybe this balance is the truth.
Respectfully disagreeing is definitely a toughie. I think it shows that other values, that of preserving a good humored friendship, are more important than the clash of values/debate at hand. I have a friend who has very deep emotions and gets very riled up when we have a serious disagreement (often on bullshit topics, like me trying to control or coddle her, i.e. telling her to back up her files, threatening to buy her a new purse because hers keeps opening…) and I can’t deal with her reaction and want to preserve our friendship, I just agree or become silent or walk away.