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Saturn In Virgo: Controlling Conversation / Competent Communication
Ask the collective
As I mentioned half the team (of women) I have been working with over these last months in regard to the anomaly has dropped off. It was a good half too, however the strongest player outside myself remains.
This gal is formidable. She happens to be an attorney but that has nothing to do with it. I have seen 6 or 7 attorneys do their gig since this thing began and they are all pretty normal except this one gal who is IN YOUR FACE.
She has a posture and while I would not characterize her as intimidating you definitely know that when you’re talking, she’s listening and her ability to listen is uncommon.
I noticed right away that I could say 1000 words before she said 1 if she even said 1 which she generally did not. I knew what was happening. I knew I was being recorded… let the fool speak and reveal themselves but since I am not a fool and I was not hiding anything I continued to speak out and we reached the end of that first conversation with what I thought was a neutral position on her part.
Over the next month or so there were more conversations and I continued to be very vocal, never couching my words.For one it’s not my nature and for two she’d have been on to any nuance anyway. It’s this simple:
In my book the person who speaks the least is generally the one to watch because they are a card player. They are looking at your cards while concealing their own. But in this case I was free to talk and show my cards because I knew my hand was pat. I was holding a Royal Flush. I was actually holding 3 0r 4 Royal Flushes so it didn’t much matter who saw one of my cards. Didn’t matter if thought I was a bluff and bet against me because eventually all cards would be shown and this is exactly what happened in this case. While initially this gal thought I could not be for real, she found out that I am in fact very real and not only that, I think she likes me.
Because she was the one who comforted me in the courtroom when I started crying about the soldier’s cancer scare. And she was the one and the only one who asked how I was doing at the next meeting though everyone there was well aware the situation. Which just goes to show you that just because someone is keen or skilled does not mean they lack compassion or humanity. But here’s my question:
Do you ever consciously keep your mouth shut to draw the other person out? Because I am telling you, this gal could teach a class on this.
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Ah! What a good way to describe people who talk the least. “Card players” I love that, that is exactly what they’re doing. Checking your cards. That’s annoying!
it’s actually how i operate with a large percentage of my professional interactions. i totally relate to this woman. well maybe ‘totally’ is an exaggeration but i sense i do.
however i wasn’t always this way, it was my Pluto/Neptune transit (conjunction) in 2002-3 (during which my life essentially got wiped clean) that taught me this. grief can teach a person this.
i wonder if this woman was born like this or had a radical set of circumstances that invoked this ability to communicate in an unusual way?
kashmiri - I think she’s been trained as in trained in interrogation. I have been interrogated in my life.. extensively. By police, the sheriff, the CID (Army) and the FBI.
Later in another incident I was actually interrogated by an ex-Scotland Yard guy so fair to say I am very experienced and this gal in is that class.
I like to let someone talk if they need to talk. Its not a strategy to get something or a process to win something. If someone seems to look like they need to vent words or talk I listen and they get it out. Its natural as peeing.
k
all the time.
though sometimes i just can’t get a word in if i wanted to anyway. it depends
Kingsley - Yep, except she is counsel for the opposing side! What has happened is over 3-4 months the opposing side has decided not to oppose me at all. Whew! But her job / function in the scenario is absolutely to fact gather and not in my interest.
WOW! that’s pretty amazing. i have a friend who is trained in interrogation tactics and i just love talking about that business.
funnily enough this same friend helped me a lot (with my problems in telling people how i feel when i’m angry) through describing these tactics (though when we talk it is more in the ‘diversion’ division).
Ooh, Elsa, I don’t feel all that great about this. Do you think the lull in opposition is merely them lying in wait? Her being so comforting in court and asking how you are at the meetings (overstepping the bounds of professionalism, basically, if she’s opposing) are reminiscent of “good cop” behavior in the good cop-bad cop game. You might be onto her prowess, but please, please make sure it doesn’t come back to bite you in the ass.
And yes, to answer your question, I do this all the time. Takes one to know one, I guess.
I do it because it’s effective. Interject a leading question here and there and watch them run with it. And I also figure, hey, if I do most of the talking, 1) the other person is only thinking about their own story anyway and 2) I have nothing to gain by listening to myself prattle.
“…and not only that, I think she likes me.”
You’re vulnerable, she’s trained. I’d watch her like a hawk.
Avery - I am not worried at all and you should not be either. This is just not the direction this is going in any way shape or form. I am sorry I am cryptic but I’ve no choice. But really you do not have to worry about that. I am losing like a motherfucker, I am taking losses I can and will never recover from but they are simply not on this front. When I said, royal flush, I meant royal flush. These days they say, “That’s Elsa… no it’s not what you think, she’s got a royal flush, I have checked her cards.”
Matter of fact one of the gals who was able to sign off told me if I needed any help at all with people misunderstanding me I could refer them to her. I hung up shortly after… “I am not going to take up any more of your time because I will not be surprised if I have to come to you for that…”
Okay, I won’t worry. The situation just sounded really suspect. Love you and hoping for the best.
Avery - I am trained too.
The woman stands in court and speaks for me. We have the same judge all the time, he is aware of everyone’s positions. She supports me in the meetings. She came in looking for an angle, she found one and I am not it.
I am not kidding about all the interrogation. I know exactly what it’s like to talk into a tape recorder and in my case it is in my best interest because although my story may be harrowing and unusual when you look back at your notes over months or years it is clear I am a truth teller and that is all there is to it.
So I tell them a wild tale, they check it, find out I;m right and come back with more questions. I wind up being their number one source - reliable, trustworthy and don’t waste your time.
Nothing smart people like more than that.
Please don’t interpret that I was underestimating you at all. Obviously this is that anomaly that transcends traditional legal methodology. Sounds like maybe the potential bad PR might have become “the enemy” here.
You got to know when to hold ‘em…
“I am a truth teller” nothing truer than that! Totally off topic, but I just finished watching the special on Randy Pausch, the Last Lecture, and one of his parting comments was “Don’t tell people how to live their lives, tell them stories and tell them the truth”. I couldn’t think of anyone that does that better than you.
Yes… but sometimes I can talk for a good streak too.
Elsa- It’s good to know that you are holding all the right cards. And interesting to hear about your experience!
I am about 60% listen, 30% talk and 10% space out, lose interest or forget what we were talking about. The space out factor can increase if it’s towards the end of a long day.
Kingsley- ‘It’s natural as peeing.’ Yes and some people seem to hold it in for weeks and then you think they are never going to stop!
Kashmiri– that is really weird. I am going through the Pluto-Neptune conjunction right now, and I would say that it’s exactly what it has taught me, too. Why grief teaches you to keep your mouth shut, I don’t know, but it’s been a valuable acquired skill for me… if hard-bought.
Do you ever consciously keep your mouth shut to draw the other person out? Because I am telling you, this gal could teach a class on this.
Hrmm.
max
[’Maybe.’]
Heather Meeks - Thank you.
Avery - our comments hit at the same time. My last was posted before I read your one in between. I do not fell underestimated. I know I talk in code and I know you care. It’s like when you mentioned the soldier and I fighting all the time. I just have to explain.
Shaina I think grief teaches you to keep your mouth shut because the potential to learn is so great. (and I could be totally off base but I think our charts have some similarities–a bit of Capricorn and Sun square Saturn? Sorry if I’m wrong. My memory is fuzzy).
Absorb, absorb, absorb…being quiet becomes akin to being meditative. Stilling the mind–truly stilling the mind (because there’s so little left?) A void is created and information comes in.
The last hurrah of my Pluto/Neptune..almost the exact same time, my SO had Pluto transit his Mars. He broke his back (and the rest of his body) mountain biking the same time my transit was decimating my life.
If it is of any comfort to you we are both in much better places than we were before.
Yes, I’m a tape recorder
Yeah, I try. I would like to be better at it.
“In my book the person who speaks the least is generally the one to watch because they are a card player. They are looking at your cards while concealing their own.”
Totally!
Sure.
But there have been lots of times in which I felt like whoever was speaking was holding me hostage and I couldn’t or didn’t know how to rip away from them. Or times in which I felt angry about people confiding in me (especially when I was a child and was told all kinds of inappropriate confessions bc I wouldn’t judge and didn’t know how to cut people off. But all of this is a little different from what you’re talking about. Just to point out that sometimes it’s the speaker who hijacks the listener…)
Whoa! Wait! I have cards? heheheh.
I just talktalktalktalk. When I listen I really listen too though, and I find that people talk more, and looser, when I talk than when I’m quiet and wait for them to fill the void.
I am often the person in a group who says little, and as such, I am often underestimated. And when it comes time to show my hand, people are surprised. Oh, duh. I have a Scorpio Moon on the cusp of my 3rd house squared by Pluto. I may be quiet but I’m paying attention and by the end I know who’s holding which cards.
Wow this is such a great post.
And yes I do this and Im usually underestimated.
Scorpio Sun in the 8th conjunct Pluto hidden by a Pisces Rising and Mars Conjunct Neptune in the 10th (Cap Moon square saturn keeps me honset though)
god yes, i keep my mouth shut and observe. i do talk sometimes, too, of course, but if i’m in a situation where i need to get the feel for what somebody else is all about, i watch, i listen, and i tune in. keep my questions few, far between, open-ended and neutral…the other person often projects what they want on me, which also tells me a lot about where they are coming from. i look to understand.
Kashmiri– whoa. That is some heavy stuff (the circumstances you went through). The meditative state of mind sounds very familiar.
Definitely yes on the Capricorn. ^_^
surprisingly enough I am pretty good at the wait and let them talk. (I’m a gemini, don’cha know) And I’m really good/bad for remembering the conversation after everyone else has forgotten it