I think part of feeling that justice has been done depends on how you feel about ignorance. Some people feel that ignorance is punishment in and of itself. For example, being Kenneth Lay and all that entails.

But other people disagree, pointing out that ignorance is frequently bliss, as ignorant people don’t know they’re ignorant.

I tend to agree with the former theory, since my concept of justice is happening in my own head. So even though the other person may not suffer because their limited viewpoint prevents them from seeing that which would make them suffer (remorse), how they feel about their lives isn’t as relevant to my concept of justice as how *I* feel about their lives.

But I can see it the other way around, too.

None of us escape dying, so I don’t think dying was his escape from justice. He’ll miss seeing the magnitude of his crimes’ impact. There’s no way to know if he saw the errors of his way. Only he knows that for real…
The idea that he needs to suffer in a way that is tangible for other people (jailed, sick, fucked up, whatever) is a very human, but in my opinion limited idea. That is a perversion of the concept of karma.

Interesting discussion, though it reminds me that shortly after Lay “died,” Eric Francis at Planet Waves wrote what I considered a rather compelling article “laying” out the evidence — astrological and otherwise — for the story being a fraud. The timing was too odd, for one thing: convicted but not sentenced, he still had access to a LOT of his ill-gotten money. And close to George W.

What is troubling about Lay’s death or Milosovic’s death is that it robbed their victims of the opportunity to hear them speak about why they did what they did. A big part of the story died with them, and it makes closure difficult.

I hope so, and I generally like to believe it, but there is no way for me to know in the short term. I’ll live like it’s true.

What more perfect justice: a guy who did so many heartless acts, stealing many many people’s pensions and savings for his own personal gain, etc., dies of a heart attack? (Willing to consider that he is on a beach some place, but also satisfied with the thought that we all die some day and we all have those quiet moments in our life, like before we go to sleep, when we are forced to face the truth.)

It is hard to understand justice. It’s the subject of many Platonic dialogs and Greek tragedies; one of my favorite texts on the subject is the Orestia, the story (in three parts) of the return of Agamemnon from the Trojan war. He sacrificed his daughter to get good sailing winds, then spent 10 years at war, raping and pilaging. When he comes back (sans daughter, concubines in tow), his wife murders him. Then, their son avenges his father’s death by killing the mother and her lover. The Furies come to deliver raw justice, the torment of madness, very fire and brimstone like - not always nice - before the final ending where Athena, the rule of law, comes down to temper the fury of the Furies and the townspeople who’ve got their pitch forks, nooses and torches ready. It is so easy to get caught up in that feeling of vengeance, hatred, anger, of wanting to deliver just deserts, but often in a wrathful way. In some ways, that feeling furthers the crime perpetrated by the “wrong doer” by making those who were wronged, those who judge and cry out for justice just as wrong, ugly, and guilty by their wrath. On the whole, the idea of justice is so ephemeral because the line between victim and perpetrator is really so thin. Christian theologians often use the example of Jesus and Judas Iscariot - without Judas, could Christ have done what he was sent to do? Moreover, the idea that we are all both Judas and Christ, both perpetrator and victim, is powerful and rings true. We’re all in this bitch together, eh? If we are One working out our collective crap together, it is inevitable that we all play the roles of victim as well as wrong doer at some point in our lives. I’m no bible thumper, but I do believe in forgiveness, mercy, and justice, and a certainty that justice is served in its own way in its own sweet time. It is easy for it to sound like philosophical b.s., because it is terribly open ended and without definitive, black and white, this-for-that, fulfilling sort of answers. But what in this world is ever that simple?

-libra

Post 13 Correction:

The movies are, “Defending Your Life” (also called Level 27 the Park in Robert Monroe’s work) and “What Dreams May Come” (the depiction of hell is enough to get you on the good foot before immediately)

enJOY!

I suggest reading about “narcissism in the workplace” to truly understand someone like KL. People like this are incapable of comprehending how they affect other people’s lives. And, it is truly awarded in business today.

Be sure to understand that narcissists aren’t “in love with themselves” as some believe, but they are so detached from any true sense of self, they can only put a reflection of themselves out into the world (one they believe is what the world sees as perfect). It is kind of already hell, if you consider divine bliss finding that living your true self is always within your reach.

The catch or duality of it is that they are blissfully ignorant to the concept that they aren’t being their true selves.