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Must You Fight To Have Peace? Mars Reacting To A Violent Situation
Commenting on the comments
Eva writes on the Must You Fight To Have Peace blog:
“Even when you are being attacked, it’s not really you being attacked - you are the receptacle of another persons’ projections and dramas and fantasies; you are interpreting actions, words and phenomena to be an attack. What’s really going on is you are putting your stuff out there and deciding what conditions qualify as an attack - and then you have to identify an enemy, and then you have to vanquish the enemy, thus proving to yourself that you’re competent, or strong, or brave. Who knows if this is true - what is true is that you somehow need this interaction with yourself and the world to prove that you are right about reality.
The point is not to *stand up for yourself* but to investigate where the “attack” is coming from. One’s “power” is an idea to counter another idea - powerlessness. How do you use your “power”? You create situations, look for opportunities to prove, within your internal drama, that you are “powerful”. This is a story of the ego and is not spiritual at all…” read the whole comment here.
Eva - this all sounds good but it falls apart when a man comes through your window at night to threaten you or your child with a knife and you really ARE being attacked. At that point what are you going to do? Stand there and think about projections? I doubt it.
You are either going to fight (use your Mars) or call the police (use someone else’s Mars). Or I suppose you can just let the guy cut your throat… ‘cause you need to prove reality?
::shakes head::
I say get your bat and knock the guy’s block off before he kills you, your child and then moves on to the next house.
What would you do in a real life violent situation?
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I have absolutely no doubt that I would defend myself effectively in that situation, particularly if my children (or even my dogs) were being threatened.
Real world issues trump philosophy and theory every time. We are HERE in the real world in real bodies to experience reality. It’s nice if we can gain insight that transcends our physical reality but trying to get out of our bodies too much sort of defeats the purpose of having the experience of being real live human beings doesn’t it?
Yeah, those (Elsa’s) were my thoughts exactly when I read the comment. The projection model works well in communication issues, but when it comes down to this weird entropic universe randomly connecting you with a pit bull attack or a road rage asshole or an attempted rape, not so much. All three have happened to me, and I went into survival mode instead of pondering what I should be learning about my unresolved dependence issues. You beat the dog over the head with the bike pump so his jaws don’t lock. You drive to the police station until he tails you no more. You knee him in the nutsack and run like hell.
And *then* you can pat your ego on the back for having created a situation that tests your onmipotence.
This is such a great discussion especially since a month or 2 ago a rapist broke into our house (Venus in exact conjunction to Pluto in the 8th). My sister and my mum were in the house and we all have Neptune aspecting Mars so we fled the house. (It seemed safer to escape then be trapped in the house) My mum also has Mercury exactly conjunct her Mars so what did she do? She grabbed the car keys and we all fled to the car. And if he came after us she was going to run him down. We luckily were alright.
We all have Libra promient in our charts and Im all for peace but sometimes you have to fight, theories, philosphies and ideals aside. I’ve been in other violent situations and I can tell you every time Im fighting be it via police, via my own body or via escape. (Stellium in the 8th, Scorpio Sun)
Great discussion though! Great food for thought
Elsa, you are right on. If my “leaky” Venus/Neptune conjunction, in the first H, taught me anything it was personal boundaries. I allowed anyone do anything and everything to me and I can tell you it cost me an inordinate amount of suffering.
When someone is invading your boundary then you have an obligation to help them realize this personal space, which will, in turn, help them in the end to self-discipline.
Does it require violence to defend these personal boundaries? I think only if the other person asks for that kind of exchange. I really believe it to be a loving gesture to give people what they ask for.
Agreed that we defend ourselves when we’re being threatened, physically or otherwise. Absolutely.
But how many violent situations come about because we project our own hostility onto others, don’t question our own thinking, and then deny our own complicity in it or our ability to defuse the problem? Damn [insert national, religious, ethnic, political group, person, etc.] is threatening us, so we have to defend ourselves.
It used to be permissible for a husband to beat his wife (”the rule of thumb” meant he shouldn’t use a stick any wider than his thumb). Spanking and much worse was acceptable for disciplining children. Not too many people claim to condone these practices today. We’re encouraged to find less violent ways of resolving problems. Parents still have to find ways to raise their kids right and for spouses to work out their differences. The same onus could be put on politicians to work out their differences without violence.
But a lot of people like a big gladiatorial combat from time to time. And so we get them.
I fought so I could run away . . And then I ran for it.
I’m a tiny little girl and much as I’d like to think there’s stuff I can do the fact is I’m 5′1 and 110lbs dripping wet and once I can’t poke you in the eye, kick you, pull your hair, pinch or claw atcha I’m screwed. So, go for the throat, and once you’re loose, run.
Ya know, this conversation reminds me of the lady who went out for a pack of cigarettes and when she came back to her apartment she was forced inside by a rapist/murderer. Instead of freaking she offered him crack and advice from the book she had been reading, ‘A Purpose driven Life’.
As a matter of fact I believe she read him passages from the book.
He was so overwhelmed by her kind offerings that he ixnayed on his initial intent.
I’m wondering if she had just offered him the passages from the book if he’d have paid it any attention or was it merely the fact that he could relate to her through their shared use of crack?
I’d like to think that in a moment such as this I could pull out some wisdom to thwart aggression, but, my need for self preservation prevents me from assessing the odds of this ever happening.
I think in situations such as these you just have to feel your way through.
I’d like nothing more than the world Valkyrie and Eva speaks of. I’ll have to try that in the future……if this situation presents itself.
I was car-jacked when I was 17 years old. Three guys with knives pulled us out of the car (parked) and harassed us a bit. One of the guys put his hand on my neck and asked me where I keep my money. That’s when I went ballistic. I started yelling at them to get the F out of here. I looked at my date (wimp, btw) and said, “you better get them off me.” I tell ya, I was nuts!
My date didn’t do anything, but my screaming freaked them out and they took the car and ran. We went back into the house of my date’s friend. He and his friends jumped into a car to chase them with baseball bats. Umm, dude, you had your chance and stood there like a wimp.
Thank goodness my (fairly long) fuse has an end. I potentially saved my own life! Can you imagine if they had taken me???
A very sweet old woman called me a few days later because she found my driver’s license near the stripped car. It was in THE WORST neighborhood in the city. She was going to church and found my wallet. She said she only left her house on Sunday mornings to go to church. My dad and I went to get my wallet from her as well as my scattered belongings near the car. My dad wouldn’t let me out of the car the entire time.
I threw away every piece of clothing I had on that night.
Well, so, there you have it. MY real life example. Pretty freaky.
some boundaries don’t get crossed without immediate response. the physical safety of me and mine is a primary one. which should be pretty clear cut.
but emotional safety is just as important, and trickier to gauge.
Thankfully, I have never had the need to find out what I would do if I were physically attacked. I am, however, very protective of my space. My mom, the Sadge sun, moon and rising told me when I was little that if a man every tried to attack me to go for the balls (”pop a nut”, as you say), go for the eyes and go for the belly. I think that is exactly what I would do, without even thinking.
Yes, if you’ve attracted a situation where you’re physically threatened, you’re going to have to deal with it in some way and yes, that’s probably the wrong point to try to pick apart why it happened. There is a time for action and a time for thought and analysis. But you’re just proving the point — you can use your power to act out the belief that you’re powerless or vulnerable.
:). Hi Elsa:
Astrology is the study of ego patterns. Mars and Venus, love and aggression, right? But ego patterns are what are laid over true consciousness. Knowing what they’re doing is great but it’s not the *solution* to violence or aggression or hatred. I believe the true function of learning your astrology is to ultimately transcend it.
The original poster was a Pisces, I think, who was saying that he(she?) felt that “turn the other cheek” could potentially cause more violence than ” stand up for yourself”. I was trying to explain that the real intention of turning the other cheek is not to invite and accept personal violation, but to make a choice not to perpetuate violence. This is a really deep, resonant teaching but it’s sometimes totally misunderstood to mean that somehow you improve as a person based on how often and how cooperatively you invite abuse.
I have a pretty mundane example of what I mean from my own life: I had the opportunity to really screw my ex-husband over in my divorce — several times. I didn’t do that, not because I adore the guy, but because I didn’t want to perpetuate the war. I figured that starting a fight was going to get me a fight, instead of what I really wanted, which was to move on, get better, and get over. I had a choice to start a war or transcend the experience — give it to the 12th house, as you would say. It also seemed that having the war was the same as continuing the relationship ( 7th house) — a relationship that I was trying to *end*. Logically peace meant more to me than war, even though the war would have made me richer financially and more “powerful” in the general sense of the word I guess. But also, if I projected it into the future — five years older with nothing going on except the crappy relationship I had still not been able to leave.
So I think we’re talking about two different things now. You’re talking about personal emotional engagement and I’m talking about transcendance. The value of awareness is that we always have a choice — to go for peace or to enlist in the war.
I think you should just not let a man with a knife “appear” in front of your eyes…and find peace if it happens because…
“I am the reflection of YOU”.
Sometimes you get so angry that you can’t control yourself and it’s probably the most hard thing to do: forgive and wish people well.
I am currently working in an intellectual property law office and all companies spend their time fighting against people.
As we protect these companies against a lot of guys with a lot of “knifes” we always feel angry when we see one…but the anger must be changed into “sense of humour” in order to be able to go on.
I think it’s better to “leave and let die” like the song. Then this bad person will “die” not only in your brain but also in the world.
Cheers
Monica
I was attacked once, and I still can’t believe it but I talked myself out of it. I reasoned with the guy and I managed to turn the situation around.
I’m reminded of the experience of someone I know… who used some very positive interpersonal interaction to save her own life from a rapist who was going to kill her. Not my story to tell. But it was pretty amazing… because she had so many forgiving beliefs in her own life, she was able to convince him that his sparing her would mean something. So he spared her. And she went and reported it.
There’s the basic cultural package: you report it to the police, you try to remember their face, you fight back or you don’t (some sources say don’t), you try to behave RATIONALLY. But once all that’s over with, you’ve still got to look yourself in the mirror and figure out what to think and feel, and these discussions of personal power are more to do with that, I think.
I’m pretty fortunate right now. I got to learn, last summer, exactly what I would do in a violent situation, without getting hurt. I was out jogging in my (very nice) neighborhood, very early in the morning, as was my habit. It was still dark. A man approached me on a bicycle and kept wanting to talk to me, I told him firmly to go away. He got off the bike and pulled a knife on me, and told me to go off with him into the bushes.
I told him, “No, you kill me right here.” He hesitated, and then tried to get me to go with him again, and I suddenly burst out screaming (it surprised me as much as it did him), and he ran away. I got out of it without a scratch.
Regrets? Well, I wish I had fought him a bit more, because I wish I’d gotten physical evidence off of him. He was completely nondescript, you see, and he was long gone by the time the police got there… I didn’t so much mind not making him pay for it, but it really bugged me that he was still out there with the ability to do it again someday. It still bugs me. But frankly, my arms and legs went absolutely limp. I’m glad my screamer didn’t.
But the big thing of that encounter was my telling him to kill me. That was spiritual combat right there, and very personal. Not everyone would have been right to have done it. But for me, it was the thing afterward that I felt best about: I didn’t betray myself. I made the decision, and the decision was that him killing me was not the worst thing that could have happened. The worst thing, to me, would have been to let him hurt me badly enough that I was scared for the rest of my life, that I questioned myself every time I step outside my door.
I still go running (with mace and a phone) in the early morning. I’m aware, but not scared. And next time, if my arms don’t go limp, if someone attacks me, I’m SO getting some flesh under my nails, not because I want to defend myself, but because I want to be able to help catch the people who do these things.
One bit of advice to everyone: if you can, scream your head off. SCREAM. There is nothing in the world so healing, so therapeutic, as seeing your attacker run off in terror.
ewinbee - that’s a good story. Damned lucky too. Cripes.
Damned lucky indeed, and not too proud to admit it.
I do need to take some self-defense classes. I didn’t like the way my arms went limp, no, not one bit.
Deciding the way of peace is one thing: I just want the choice to be my own. (Dammit.)
FWIW, I respect the hell out of someone who refuses to hit back on pure principle and principle alone. It’s a matter of priorities… if your integrity depends on turning the other cheek, then what could be worse than having that taken from you? But my integrity doesn’t live in that house.
HOLD UP ANOTHER STORY WHOA…
An old neighbor of ours and close friend of my mother’s, an elderly, kindly, wonderful woman, was attacked in her home. She and her husband were both threatened with a gun, and she was raped in sight of her husband BUT BECAUSE OF THE ANGLE, he didn’t know it was happening. He could only see her face.
They survived, and afterward, her greatest peace was in knowing that the rapist wasn’t so rough that he made her cry out, because she knew that her husband would defend her, and she knew her husband would get killed… she chose to save him. I loved her so much for that. And she’s one of the old-school turn the other cheek types, too. It’s not often you get an example of how incredibly brave they can be, too.