Perspectives - Scott vs Arie Redux 2: Can People Change Their Nature?

23 Responses to “Perspectives - Scott vs Arie Redux 2: Can People Change Their Nature?”

1. Ze FelloCello says on 10/26/06 at 7:49 am:
   

   I agree with Arie. A theif comes out of jail and steals again. It happens again. And again. They are meant to be a theif. Everybody has a place in the world. Whether it be a life-saving surgeon,or a person on the 10 most wanted. I even have it on a bookmark. “Never lose your place in the world.”-The Economist

   I am 11 years old with a scorpio rising, so I am naturally very intense…. don’t get me ticked off!

   That probably factors into my agreeing w/ Arie, the scorpio, scorpio, scorpio

2. Marly says on 10/26/06 at 7:59 am:
   

   Okay, BUT…

   As an astrologer you know that an aspect can be used in several ways. You know that a person with a Mars-Pluto square can have a hair-trigger temper and become abusive OR he can use that square in a constructive way. You know that a Pisces Moon can be a doormat if she doesn’t listen to her intuition OR she can listen to her gut and step out of harm’s way. You know that someone wih a Saturn-Sun square can be so afraid that he can’t moe and commits to dead-end situations OR he can put his fears aside and work hard to express his Sun. Now let’s talk genetics instead of astrology. Personally, part of my family has a predisposition to heart disease. I have a tendency to gain weight in my belly and belly fat above a certain level is a risk factor for heart disease. Now, I can just say, “Well, that’s the way I am. I’m chubby,” and I can keep eating and refusing to exercise the way I used to do before I was 29. But I don’t. Instead, I work out at least 3 times a week. I eat a diet low in bad fat and high in good fat, with plenty of fresh organic veggies. And as a result, my doctor told me that given my cholesterol level, I should live to be a 100. Am I bragging? You bet I’m bragging bc being thin and fit and, most importantly, HEALTHY takes a lot of work on my part. Now, I will NEVER have a 22 inch waist; at my thinnest (105 lbs) my waist was still 26.5″. My genetics are still what they are but I’ve accepted my limitations and not given in to unhealthy habits in either direction like, say, not exercising and losing fitness but also by accepting who I am and not becoming bulimic. This metaphor has its limitations, of course, bc there are people who have much tougher genetics to handle than I do but it’s an example of how one is born with certain tendencies and that it depends on how we use them.

3. Ruth says on 10/26/06 at 8:20 am:
   

   I voted with scott- change is possible. Now, when it comes to reprobates, I highly doubt it, but still, it’s not like people were born stealing or killing.
   the first two lines of a chinese classic “ren yi chu, xing ben shan” “people are born, their basic nature is good and friendly”

   of course, it goes on to say that they change.

   The real question, is whether or not you believe in determinism. Like, would I be who I am where I am no matter what? What if my mother didn’t pray for me every single day? What if my parent’s had smoked? What if I hadn’t lost my brother at the age of 5?

   My life, my personality, could be mutually or separately predetermined. but I prefer not to believe that, because I want to believe that effort leads to success, and believe that you’re given what you’re given but what you do with it matters most.

   of course, believing that could just be part of my design.

   (and so is fence sitting, apparently)

4. Amber says on 10/26/06 at 8:24 am:
   

   It can’t change its spots but it can express them differently right? Talents can be used in many ways, though I suppose if you’re used to one particular way it will come more easily than another

5. Marly says on 10/26/06 at 8:28 am:
   

   Btw, I also do believe that sociopaths exist and that they absolutely can’t change. Serial killers? Most likely can’t change. If they do change, like Jeffrey Dahmer who supposedly became a born again Christian in jail, well, let them be redeemed way way the hell behind high-security bars where they can pray in peace. It’s like that old Yiddish saying about the Czar: May God bless and keep the Czar far away from me.

6. Scott says on 10/26/06 at 9:25 am:
   

   This “Scott”. I think that the reprobate theory is much more common; change is more rare. It’s just that it’s possible is all I’m saying. However, most of the time people stay true to their original natures.

7. SaDiablo says on 10/26/06 at 9:36 am:
   

   Once again, I’m with Arie. Sorry.

   Everyone’s talking about determinism and faith and human nature. Well, it’s human nature to take the path of least resistance as well, and that path is, for the most part, _to not change_. Yeah, there are people who do change, it happens.

   Few and far between, my friends. Few and far between.

   Just like you shouldn’t judge the intelligence of a nation by speaking only to it’s geniuses or retards but by the common man, so too you cannot base human nature on the exceptions of a given trait.

8. C. says on 10/26/06 at 9:38 am:
   

   Why else does Elsa write this blog? Yeah, maybe she makes some of her living off of this blog but for the most part it strikes me as a huge labor of love. Love of humanity and hope for change from someone with a very large and giving heart. Maybe on some level it’s her own therapy for her own life and her own change. (Most astrologers I know of have a certain amount of that in their own exploration of astrology- natural and normal in my mind).

   I think what is missing from this discussion is HOW MUCH change we expect. Incremental change over time can add up to a miracle, there are some sudden miracles but sometimes I agree with the inertia theory. I don’t think that the growing conditions are right for some people to change. We’re a lot like plants in that we need sunshine (the right amount) water, healthy microbes, wind, pollen (LOL) etc. If those conditions aren’t there we aren’t going to bloom. Those conditions are different for everyone.

   What may be a horrendous adversarial torturous situation for one person MAY be the trigger for change in another person. I think it has to do with the life lessons we’re here to learn and how we view them.

   Some of that is choice- how we choose to view things. Elsa often points us to a different method of viewing a situation which indicates our ability to change the situation.

   Do that 10 times in a row and you have a miracle.

   I just came across an article in a magazine by Daniel Goleman about how we are hardwired for kindness.

   Just the thought alone that there may be some physical reasons that we are kind is a beautiful thought.

   I believe people can change. I’ll give people a second chance. But at some point I realize that they aren’t changing on my watch and I have other people to spend my time with if they continue down a hurtful path. If I didn’t believe people could change I don’t know that I would want to live in this world. It would be an ugly world in my mind.

   

9. Laura Elizabeth says on 10/26/06 at 9:43 am:
   

   As downright depressing as I can be, I am not a fatalist. Everyone has the potential for redemption. Everyone can make the choices which will take them off the path of bad/evil/doom and onto the path of good/faith/hope. So, I still agree with Scott - sadly Arie is also right.

10. Marly says on 10/26/06 at 10:11 am:
    

    Hiya, Scott!!!

11. Ronda says on 10/26/06 at 10:31 am:
    

    I think you find most whatever it is you’re looking for, so it doesn’t surprise me that Arie finds reprobates everywhere he looks. He’s made a career out of finding them. Most police officers believe they’re the only ones who don’t break the law, and when my dad worked in collections at a bank, he started to believe that he and my mom were the only people in the world who paid their bills on time.

    There are sociopaths and other mentally ill people who can never change. It’s just not in their brain chemistry to do so. But I will not believe that there’s no hope for the rest of us to better ourselves. I refuse to give in to that kind of deadly and deadening cynicism.

    And no, I’m not some wide-eyed naif who goes through the world blindly trusting everybody, but I do give everybody the benefit of the doubt up to a certain point.

12. Beque says on 10/26/06 at 10:35 am:
    

    I was on the fence last time, but pressed to take a side I have to agree with Arie. A leopard is a leopard is a leopard. Which is kind of a shame, since it means I’ll always be a doormat….

13. Marly says on 10/26/06 at 10:55 am:
    

    “I think you find most whatever it is you’re looking for”

    Okay, but then how do you explain the fact that a lot of wide-eyed naifs find big bad wolves who take them for all they’re worth? Bc if they’re that naive, they’re also expecting everyone to be wonderful. I don’t mean to pick a bone with you in particular, it’s just that people ALWAYS say this (that you find what you look for) and from what I’ve seen, that ain’t necessarily so.

14. cmf says on 10/26/06 at 11:17 am:
    

    You may not even know it’s what you’re looking for until much later on. That’s happened to me too many times for it not to be true.

    I believe in change. To me it’s synonymous with hope.

15. Don says on 10/26/06 at 11:24 am:
    

    for me this centers around the value in being wounded. there is an unseen purpose of opening in some of the injustices and wounds that we recieve from others. a reprobrate is still resisting that purpose - and the opening.
    the inertia - and the appetite for self destructive behavior - can be overwhelming - but a tension gets set up that begs a resolution. i suspect that instances of individuals transforming on very fundamental levels will be become much more frequent as time passes now ….

16. Ronda says on 10/26/06 at 12:38 pm:
    

    Marly–I never meant to imply that there are no such things as predators. There are bad bad people in this world, and no mistake. And they find what they’re looking for, too.

    I speak only from my own experience, which I don’t ever expect to apply to anyone else. It’s always been true for me that whatever I put my attention on is what comes to me–the happy thing, the fearful thing, the good person, the bad person. YMMV.

17. Goddess says on 10/26/06 at 1:53 pm:
    

    well sure, people *can* change, if they choose too. if the circumstances are right. if it’s within their capacitiy in the relevant area to begin with.

    from what i’ve seen, most often they don’t. and when it’s a big change, it usually is triggered from some sort of major experience or trama.

    a reprobate may stop being a reprobate, but i ain’t gonna know it because i will have already booked at the first reprobate sighting.

18. Cassi says on 10/26/06 at 2:55 pm:
    

    i once had an astrologer tell me, after reviewing my chart, that i should be a bag person. that is exactly what she said. my friend, philip, was with me for the reading and we both gasped.
    my mother has three kids. one is dead from drugs and alcohol, one is a degenerate and nearly homeless and an alcoholic. so, the percentages kind of show her to be an interesting kind of parent. (i wont go into details, just trust those percentages).
    my point is this….i have spots, big fucking spots.
    i changed them.

19. Lupa says on 10/26/06 at 3:04 pm:
    

    Miracles can happen, but they almost never do. I voted with Scott because I don’t think you can say that people never change.

20. Marc says on 10/26/06 at 4:46 pm:
    

    My understanding as a Scorpio that at the heart of the Scorpio experience is transformation — yes, someone can have strong aspects and choose the negative expression of that aspect over and over… but no matter how many times you screw it up, there’s always the potential that you’re going to actually put it together and learn from those past missteps and allow yourself to finally rise from the ashes. In the short run, its much easier to throw your power away and say that your stars are set, but you always have the chance to finally get it right.

21. christine says on 10/26/06 at 6:14 pm:
    

    Oh you Scorpios and your stellium! It’s lighting up my life, and I hope it’s the same for you!

22. silverfoot says on 10/27/06 at 12:42 am:
    

    interesting that this is currently split almost exactly down the middle.

    i think some people just don’t have it in them to change. they just don’t have the courage to face up to the hard work of being a better person, and never will. some people have it all along, but need something to kick them into really being able to access it.

    and what i find really interesting is that almost everone has focused on losers becoming better people… what about the stellar citizens who trip and fall off their pedestals? the ones who start out gemius and amazing, and end up living out of a bottle? isn’t losing all your integrity changing your spots too?

23. Nia says on 10/27/06 at 11:54 am:
    

    I side with Scott. I believe change is possible for everyone, depending on their circumstances and motivation.

    Psychopaths often have intense charts. Accompanying those charts they often have intense lives, right from birth. And then it’s a little bit of a chicken and egg thing - if the person with that chart was born to a different family (as I’m sure many are) how would they have dealt with those aspects?

    Reprobate is a wide word. Certainly there are people who make a career out of crime, and if it’s a career whose satisfaction weigh out the costs for them, what is their motivation to quit? Drug users often go right back to using after they leave jail. But considering that they go right into their old lives and neighberhoods where they come across people dealing and using on a daily basis is it surprising that they take it up again?

    Crime does not exist in a vacuum. It tends to go hand in hand with frustration and a history of abuse and deprivation. (Except for white collar crime of course which goes with intelligence and opportunity). I’d say fundamentally a reprobate is an unhappy person. I don’t believe any of us come into the world wanting to do harm to others but that it’s something we pick up from our experiences, our surroundings, our upbringing. Sometimes (as in the case of psychopaths) the wound is so deep that it cannot be healed, because the wrong cannot be admitted. They tend to be chilly and completely detached from themselves. And where the detachment exists and continues to do so - yes reprobates don’t have any motivation to change or make amends.

    However, not all reprobates are psychopaths. Some are wounded, raging, cornered-animal type people with whom dialogue may be possible if they are approached right. On the other hand if a feral cat bites you - well that’s no great surprise.

    The work I do with families is in essence about prevention. That work is not always succesful and I often see the makings of reprobates in the children I see who are surrounded by people who believe they are no good, and my interventions are not succesful. Then things reach a crisis point, they get shuttled around the care system, and often by the time they re-emerge they’ve still got all their old grief and rage with extra added, except now they are old enough to be able to do damage in return.

    I think people should exercise caution and realism, but this doesn’t mean they have to give up hope.

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